On intemperate and indiscreet zeal. (The Primary Fault of many Religion Forum posters)

Various | Various | Various

[presently no screen name]

Sounds like a lot of RC literature about Mary

You know what words I came across today... Mother of the Eucharist. She bore the 'man', Jesus. She had nothing to do with His Divinity.

Thank God we have the Mary who was an obedient servant to HIS Word submitted to HIS Will and fulfilling the call on her life. Their Mary is a holy goddess to them - an idol - giving false accolades.

LiKe Joseph was an obedient servant and submitted to the call on his life and stayed faithful while in prison unjustly for God's Will and purpose to be accomplished through him.

And David - how he submitted to the call on his life to fulfill God's Will and purpose. A man after God's heart!

And Abraham - how he submitted to the call on his life to fulfill God's Will and purpose. The Father of many!

And Esther - If I perish, I perish. Giving her life if need be - to fulfill God's Will and purpose.

And John the Baptist - from birth - his whole life totally given to fulfill the call on his life. His was anointed to fulfill his call before he was born while in the womb.

Each and everyone has a call on their life - some calls may look major or minor role to us - but to God they are all important because it's His Will being fulfilled and that's the plan HE chose for each of them. It's all about HIM, no one else.

[count-your-change]

Even the Jerusalem Bible has a footnote saying the “comma” was a later addition to John.

Some comments found at www.bible-researcher.com › Textual Criticism:

“We give below the comments of Dr. Bruce M. Metzger on 1 John 5:7-8, from his book, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd ed. (Stuttgart, 1993)......

(A) External Evidence.
(1) The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Four of the eight manuscripts contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript. The eight manuscripts are as follows:
61: codex Montfortianus, dating from the early sixteenth century.
88: a variant reading in a sixteenth century hand, added to the fourteenth-century codex Regius of Naples.
221: a variant reading added to a tenth-century manuscript in the Bodleian Library at Oxford.
429: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Wolfenbüttel.
629: a fourteenth or fifteenth century manuscript in the Vatican.
636: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Naples.
918: a sixteenth-century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.
2318: an eighteenth-century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest, Rumania.
(2) The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.
(3) The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).
The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. Apparently the gloss arose when the original passage was understood to symbolize the Trinity (through the mention of three witnesses: the Spirit, the water, and the blood), an interpretation that may have been written first as a marginal note that afterwards found its way into the text. In the fifth century the gloss was quoted by Latin Fathers in North Africa and Italy as part of the text of the Epistle, and from the sixth century onwards it is found more and more frequently in manuscripts of the Old Latin and of the Vulgate. In these various witnesses the wording of the passage differs in several particulars. (For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)”

The Comma is no part of the Bible. It is spurious.

[Judith Anne]

“Thank God we have the Mary who was an obedient servant to HIS Word submitted to HIS Will and fulfilling the call on her life. Their Mary is a holy goddess to them - an idol - giving false accolades.”

I’d like to ask a favor: Please realize that Mary, the Mother of God, is not a holy goddess to me. I do not worship her. She was a humble woman, who became (by virtue of her assent to God’s will) the mother of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Throughout human history, the mother of the King is the Queen Mother. I respect her. I honor her. I ask her for her prayers, because I believe she lives in heaven. It is my belief that she loves everyone who loves her Son.

For you to say she is like a goddes, or idol, is not true; futher, it is unkind to those of us who love her. She is my perfect example of a Christian, pointing us ever toward her Son, Christ Jesus, Risen Son of the Living Almighty God. I ask you in all humility to cease, in His Holy Name.

[Quix]

Worthy points, I think.

However, I think your key phrase—that we need to know—is important.

I don’t think that Paul wrote everything God told him or showed him in Scripture as he mentions—being shown some things in heaven not lawful to share.

[Quix]

AGREED.

GOOD POINTS.

THX.

[Quix]

That SOUNDS encouraging . . . at least to a point.

Soooooooooo, in the interest of further TRUTH-IN-BELIEF--EXACTLY WHICH of the following brazenly worshipful adorations do you disagree with? I'd be very thankful to know each and every Roman Catholic et al hereon who disagreed with each of the following.

.

p.32[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .

p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.

5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.

6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.

"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor

p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence

p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18

p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"

p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.' [Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]

p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue." [Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]

9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.' [Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]

p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.' [Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]

5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought." [QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]

p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."

p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"

p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."

[ArrogantBustard]

The Catholics, their church is their way

In general, one would do well to restrict oneself to "pontificating" on topics of which one has at least a passing familiarity.

Your assertion regarding Catholics is both false and ridiculous, and reflects very badly on you and whatever religious confession you claim.

May The Lord enlighten you with The Truth.

[ArrogantBustard]

Bearing false witness is not a fruit of Holy Spirit.

I'd suggest that folks should bear that in mind before they hit the post button, particularly when they "pontificate" on the supposed beliefs of others.

[Elsie]

 

However, your characterization of Mormonism allows you to dismiss whatever I might say on the subject as automatically false.

 

 

Yes; you have stated this ABSOLUTELY right!!

 

If one BELIEVES the BIBLE; then MORMONism is a LIE from SATAN!

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KJV

 Galatians 1:6-9

 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 

 

 

 

ANYBODY???

 

Like this fine looking fellow???

 

 

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

 12.  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

 

Like THESE guys??

 

 

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

 

 

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

 

 

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Ephesians 2:1-2 

1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

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1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

 

2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[Elsie]

Clearly you do not intend to answer the question I asked.

I've asked, perhaps over a HUNDRED times, that ANY MORMON 'answer' just ONE thing:

What did JS 'learn' to be UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANism of his day?

As yet; NONE has answered it.

Shall we ANTI's then say:

"Until you do, there is no point in discussing anything else with you."

[Elsie]

In this way the tradition precedes Paul and his writings.

Then those JEWISH scribes went to a HELL of a lot of trouble to be sure that the WORD was COPIED down right when they made new scrolls!

[Elsie]

 

The complete paragraph makes several points:

 

So does THIS!

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In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)

 

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[Elsie]

 

At times, you seem overzealous to win the argument, unwilling to admit you are wrong, and too apt to accuse others of bad faith.

 

 

 

 

When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.

When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home.

And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was.

I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,

“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

 

[Elsie]

At times, you seem overzealous to win the argument, unwilling to admit you are wrong, and too apt to accuse others of bad faith.

GODzilla: I think this is where you are supposed to waste time defending yourself against these CHARGES!!

[Elsie]

Ahh...

I see that you’ve done well!

[Elsie]

Or to put it another way, are Latter-day Saints more or less honest than other people?

One could ask the white collar crimes section of the Utah Justice Department; but that would be a distraction.

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Are Latter-day Saints more or less DECEIVED than other people?

[Brian Kopp DPM]

See post 1428. Thanks.

[Elsie]

 

My Post 1471 provides the entire quotation, including the parts you omitted. It does not claim that Joseph Smith is Christ. Nor does it suggest that we want to de-throne Christ. The notion is preposterous.

 

 

Other prominent MORMONs seem to think differently than you:

 

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"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."

 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

 

 

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."

- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88

 

 

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

 

 

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

 

 

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."

 - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

 

 

 

"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"

 - Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

 

 

[Elsie]

I didn’t get accused harshly of a list of things almost daily.

I understand; but in my case, some of the ACCUSATIONS would be TRUE; and they could DOCUMENT them.

We ANTIs, however, seem to be ACCUSED all the time on FR, but the DOCUMENTATION is sorely lacking.

[Elsie]

How’d WHITE ever get his King in THAT position?