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To: Judith Anne; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...
That SOUNDS encouraging . . . at least to a point.

Soooooooooo, in the interest of further TRUTH-IN-BELIEF--EXACTLY WHICH of the following brazenly worshipful adorations do you disagree with? I'd be very thankful to know each and every Roman Catholic et al hereon who disagreed with each of the following.

.

p.32[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .

p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.

5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.

6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.

"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor

p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence

p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18

p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"

p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.' [Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]

p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue." [Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]

9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.' [Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]

p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.' [Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]

5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought." [QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]

p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."

p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"

p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."

1,506 posted on 07/09/2010 4:11:34 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Quix

Do you have a link for that cut and paste?


1,527 posted on 07/09/2010 6:36:19 AM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Quix
p.32[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .

"Queen" explained. A courtesy title given the mother of the king. Derivative from His Sovereignty and not hers "by right".

Dispenser of all Graces because in IHS all graces are summed up and shared. She "dispensed" IHS. QED

p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.

I am not familiar with this, personally, but IF it be so, it is by gift and not by right.

And of course, that is only an inadequate metaphor because Jesus does what his servants do in the very doing.

5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.

As above with addition of her assistance coming through prayer. Whatever you say of us, we ARE monotheists. So we think that No one, and certainly not Mary, has anything that is not given.

6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.

I think Hell trembles at every saint. So if she is the greatest of saints, it would stand to reason that Hell would tremble at her. We all share in Christ's victory over hell.

"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor

Rumor has it she was the mother of the savior.

p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence

Yep, because, as it happened in fact, Mary "dispensed" the conqueror of Hell. I am careful to avoid even rhetorical "hypothesis contrary to fact", so I translate this into the more rigorous, "Mary's assent, life, blah blah turned out to be a necessary element of the "dispensing" of the conqueror of Hell.

Like a good general (or, um Lord of Hosts) God dispenses honor freely to those who fight in His battles.

p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18

Because the fruit she bore was the giver of life. Here the fruit 'causes' the tree and determines its nature, as we say "apple tree", not because the whole tree is apple but because it's most important (to us) aspect is that it yields apples. p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"

What's the problem with this? you would prefer "concubine of the Holy Spirit"? Clearly it's metaphorical, but in another sense we all comprise the Bride of Christ. So it's a sanctioned metaphor. See Hosea and Paul.

p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.' [Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]

Your parenthesis is hostile (in the forensic sense) and tendentious. She is the vanquisher in the sense that her God given obedience and self-oblation lead to the ditto of the Son she bore and brought forth. His Ditto vanquishes hell.

So my mother is the vanquisher of my ignorance not because she gave me knowledge but she bore this human with a rumored (though not evidenced, much) brain and thus gave the means to acquire knowledge. (Okay, that's not so great. work with me.)

p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue." [Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]

The dawn heralds the coming of the Sun. Without the sun the dawn is a "false dawn." WITH the Son, Mary is a true dawn.

Indicates does not mean causes anymore than the dawn causes the sunrise.

9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.' [Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]

No doubt you think electricity is CAUSED by the outlet you plug your confuser into. Without a power plant, the plug is ridiculous. With an outlet in your house, the power plant is useless to you.

YOU guys don't do nuance much.

As to keys to God's heart, why not? She bore and nurtured Him. He loves her. And at the end of days all the saints also will have those keys.

p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.' [Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]

All the parenthetical remarks are as I describe them earlier. I might as well interpret your "LUB" as saying you do not love Jesus.

Mary Obeyed, by God's grace. That obedience was an essential part of the plan.

"For the want of a nail ... the kingdom was lost." YOUR smallest and most half-hearted assent to God's will is critical to His plan. He elected YOU to be a part and means of the establishing of His Kingdom. YOU are not irrelevant. Neither is Mary.

5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought." [QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]

Asked and answered above.

p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."

You are not forgetting that the ark was built by others, are you? God made Noah and gave him skill and obedience. Noah made the ark. In one way Noah saved; in another the ark saved; in all ways God saves.

This kind of distinction is so obvious that I marvel at someone not seeing it.

p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix [sic] between HIm and us?"

What? So was my wife mediatrix between me and my daughter. Do we need to do a facts of life talk here? You see the flowers need bees ....

(So, at the end of the wedding, when the new husband kissed the new bride, a child's loud clear voice was heard in the church: Is he brushing the pollen on her NOW, Daddy?)

p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."

As will we. As we already do, but not to the same degree or extent.

Phew. You don't ask much.

1,571 posted on 07/09/2010 10:28:30 AM PDT by Mad Dawg ("I tried being reasonable. I didn't like it." -- Dirty Harry)
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To: Quix
Thanks again for the black and white proof that the Roman Catholic church heaps onto Mary titles that belong to Christ alone.

Superstition, blasphemy and an outright denial of the grace that is God's alone.

"Flee from idolatry," teaches Scripture.

"Flee." Don't walk. RUN from it.

1,575 posted on 07/09/2010 10:34:45 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Quix; Mad Dawg

Since Mad Dawg has addressed your cut and paste, I will not.

You states: “I’d be very thankful to know each and every Roman Catholic et al hereon who disagreed with each of the following.” I am unable to help you with that.

Another remark, “EXACTLY WHICH of the following brazenly worshipful adorations do you disagree with?” a)the titles are not “brazenly worshipful adorations” and b)none, but I am reading with MY eyes, mind, and heart, not yours.

Meanwhile, I reiterate my request:

I’d like to ask a favor: Please realize that Mary, the Mother of God, is not a holy goddess to me. I do not worship her. She was a humble woman, who became (by virtue of her assent to God’s will) the mother of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Throughout human history, the mother of the King is the Queen Mother. I respect her. I honor her. I ask her for her prayers, because I believe she lives in heaven. It is my belief that she loves everyone who loves her Son.

For you to say she is like a goddes, or idol, is not true; futher, it is unkind to those of us who love her. She is my perfect example of a Christian, pointing us ever toward her Son, Christ Jesus, Risen Son of the Living Almighty God. I ask you in all humility to cease, in His Holy Name.

It’s just a request, not a request for a dialog.


1,645 posted on 07/09/2010 3:44:10 PM PDT by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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