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To: count-your-change
Read beyond vs. 9, in vs. 36

It doesn't change the fact that he spoke to the whole crowd in parables first, including the disciples. Then he explains to the select few. Heavenly secrets revealed only to select individuals is Gnsotic.

In chapter 10 he had already told the disciples to preach from the house tops what he had told them in secret and at the end of Matthew he commands them to go with the message to the whole world

No, just the gospel, the good news that the kingdom of God is near. To the Jews that meant Israel will be restored. Besides, the only thing the disciples did among the "lost sheep of Israel" was to heal the sick. After the resurrection, the "good news" was that he will be back, not the secrets of heaven.

What allegedly happened to Paul on the way to Damascus was also Gnostic. He learned nothing from any man, as he assures us, but directly from the resurrected Christ, because God had set him apart for that in his mother's womb and then, at the right moment, revealed his Son in(!) him (Paul). Doesn't get much more Gnostic than that.

Matthew's so-called Great Commission calls on the disciples to teach (the good news, i.e. that he will be back) and baptize. Hardly revealing secrets of the heaven.

[the Bible tells us that hardening of the heart is God's doing] Where is that stated?

All over the Old Testament. Either everything is God's doing or it's a hit and miss uncertainty. The only way God's plan will work is if things happen exactly as God willed from all eternity, and Jesus tells his followers to acknowledge that ("Your will be done...").

So it is said, God did it though the people acted quite freely of their own will even if it seemed that way to them. Their "choice" was only to reject. That's not a choice.

Well, if God did it (harden their hearts) then the reaction of the preople was necessarily guided by the act of God and could not be a free will choice.

We are warned not to harden our own hearts

Yes, in the NT (except for John 12:40), but it is obvious from the OT that things would not have happened the way God wanted them if he hadn't done it himself, even if people thought that was their doing. Without God hardening the Pharaoh's heart Exodus would not have happened, and so many of Israelites' enemies would have opted not to fight...and the whole nine yards would be a totally different story.

I mean, you can say that Judas betrayed Jesus on his own, but he was pretty much "set apart" from the womb, as Paul would say, that he will be the fall guy, LOL. Without Judas, no arrest, without arrest no crucifixion, whiteout crucifixion no resurrection, without resurrection no Christianity...and even Jesus acknowledges in the Garden of Gethsemane "Your will be done..." or else the whole story falls apart.

725 posted on 07/14/2010 7:55:40 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: kosta50
Oh please!!!! Listen to yourself!!

“Heavenly secrets revealed only to select individuals is Gnostic.”

Any and everything spoken in private or called secret constitutes Gnosticism... Sure...In the same way each and every appearance of “I” and “am” together is a quote of Ex. 3:14.

“No, just the gospel, the good news that the kingdom of God is near.”

The “good news of the kingdom” wasn't a one liner as anyone reading Jesus teachings would know. The disciple were to preach and teach ALL the things he had commanded them.

On the one hand you claim heavenly secrets WERE revealed and then when Jesus says teach ALL the things I have commanded,

“Hardly revealing secrets of the heaven.”

Jesus was no teacher of Gnosticism nor was Paul no matter how anyone might wish it were so or hope it or raise their noses to the wind hoping to catch a whiff of gnosticism and claim the Scriptures as just another gnostic writing.

All over the Old Testament. Either everything is God's doing or it's a hit and miss uncertainty. The only way God's plan will work is if things happen exactly as God willed from all eternity, and Jesus tells his followers to acknowledge that (”Your will be done...”).

Nope, false choice of alternatives. People can respond according to their own free will but God still accomplishes what He wishes. Pharaoh was an outstanding example of a person who had several opportunities to choose but God still accomplished exactly what He wanted to do, His plan, if you will, despite Pharaoh's choice of action.

“Well, if God did it (harden their hearts) then the reaction of the people was necessarily guided by the act of God and could not be a free will choice.”

That is your interpretation of the meaning and possibilities of the what took place. The account shows your conclusion is wrong and that understanding of free will is wrong.

More predestination? Nope, Just as Joshua said to the Israelite, ‘CHOOSE’ whom you will serve’ , and they said they had CHOSEN (lots of free will here) and entered into a covenant. (Josh. 12:15)

Throughout the account of the Israelites’ exodus from Egypt it is made clear that it is Pharaoh's attitude and continued stubbornness toward God's command that constitutes God “hardening” his heart. (Ex. 9:12)
Pharaoh made his heart hard but since it was in reaction to acts performed by God it is attributed to Him.

The warning against hardening our own hearts is very O.T as both John 12 and Hebrew 4 quote from its words about hardening the heart. Not just a N.T. thing at all. (good grief!)

“...., but it is obvious from the OT that things would not have happened the way God wanted them if he hadn't done it himself, even if people thought that was their doing. Without God hardening the Pharaoh's heart Exodus would not have happened, and so many of Israelites’ enemies would have opted not to fight...and the whole nine yards would be a totally different story.”

No, it is not “obvious” at all. This is Pink Unicornism at its pinkest and unicorniest.
Playing “what if” with history may be fun as a mind game but has no explanatory value seeing what happened is what happened and that is what is available to us.

“I mean, you can say that Judas betrayed Jesus on his own, but he was pretty much “set apart” from the womb, as Paul would say, that he will be the fall guy, LOL.”

Yeah, that is a laughable statement. Of course it was God's will that Jesus become a sacrifice. Never any question of that. Saaaay, You're becoming great fun! I really didn't expect this at all.

739 posted on 07/14/2010 12:22:14 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: kosta50
I see the lie in your argument here.

Do you maintain that YOU have free will to choose your atheism?

There's no God, according to you, so He couldn't have done it.

That leaves chance, random societal and biochemical influences, totally free will, and conditioned choice.

By conditioned choice, think of a freshman college girl being talked into giving sexual favors to an frat boy against her better judgment. (He didn't *Force* her, but without his pressure, she wouldn't have done it on her own.)

You know, not when you're swashbuckling here, but later, when you're among other atheists and ranting and raving about "those nutty Christianists."

Cheers!

1,670 posted on 07/22/2010 11:48:59 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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