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To: kosta50
Oh please!!!! Listen to yourself!!

“Heavenly secrets revealed only to select individuals is Gnostic.”

Any and everything spoken in private or called secret constitutes Gnosticism... Sure...In the same way each and every appearance of “I” and “am” together is a quote of Ex. 3:14.

“No, just the gospel, the good news that the kingdom of God is near.”

The “good news of the kingdom” wasn't a one liner as anyone reading Jesus teachings would know. The disciple were to preach and teach ALL the things he had commanded them.

On the one hand you claim heavenly secrets WERE revealed and then when Jesus says teach ALL the things I have commanded,

“Hardly revealing secrets of the heaven.”

Jesus was no teacher of Gnosticism nor was Paul no matter how anyone might wish it were so or hope it or raise their noses to the wind hoping to catch a whiff of gnosticism and claim the Scriptures as just another gnostic writing.

All over the Old Testament. Either everything is God's doing or it's a hit and miss uncertainty. The only way God's plan will work is if things happen exactly as God willed from all eternity, and Jesus tells his followers to acknowledge that (”Your will be done...”).

Nope, false choice of alternatives. People can respond according to their own free will but God still accomplishes what He wishes. Pharaoh was an outstanding example of a person who had several opportunities to choose but God still accomplished exactly what He wanted to do, His plan, if you will, despite Pharaoh's choice of action.

“Well, if God did it (harden their hearts) then the reaction of the people was necessarily guided by the act of God and could not be a free will choice.”

That is your interpretation of the meaning and possibilities of the what took place. The account shows your conclusion is wrong and that understanding of free will is wrong.

More predestination? Nope, Just as Joshua said to the Israelite, ‘CHOOSE’ whom you will serve’ , and they said they had CHOSEN (lots of free will here) and entered into a covenant. (Josh. 12:15)

Throughout the account of the Israelites’ exodus from Egypt it is made clear that it is Pharaoh's attitude and continued stubbornness toward God's command that constitutes God “hardening” his heart. (Ex. 9:12)
Pharaoh made his heart hard but since it was in reaction to acts performed by God it is attributed to Him.

The warning against hardening our own hearts is very O.T as both John 12 and Hebrew 4 quote from its words about hardening the heart. Not just a N.T. thing at all. (good grief!)

“...., but it is obvious from the OT that things would not have happened the way God wanted them if he hadn't done it himself, even if people thought that was their doing. Without God hardening the Pharaoh's heart Exodus would not have happened, and so many of Israelites’ enemies would have opted not to fight...and the whole nine yards would be a totally different story.”

No, it is not “obvious” at all. This is Pink Unicornism at its pinkest and unicorniest.
Playing “what if” with history may be fun as a mind game but has no explanatory value seeing what happened is what happened and that is what is available to us.

“I mean, you can say that Judas betrayed Jesus on his own, but he was pretty much “set apart” from the womb, as Paul would say, that he will be the fall guy, LOL.”

Yeah, that is a laughable statement. Of course it was God's will that Jesus become a sacrifice. Never any question of that. Saaaay, You're becoming great fun! I really didn't expect this at all.

739 posted on 07/14/2010 12:22:14 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
and then when Jesus says teach ALL the things I have commanded

And how do you know what he commanded them? The Bible says not everything is in the Bible. So who is teaching the unwritten stuff when the apostles are not here any more, and how do we know what it is?

And how do you know we have everything that was written, when in fact we know that some writings of the apostles are lost? Don't flatter yourself too much, genius.

Jesus was no teacher of Gnosticism nor was Paul no matter

The way John and Paul and others write has Gnostic overtones.

People can respond according to their own free will but God still accomplishes what He wishes

Sorry, all the events described in the Bible were predestined, or else they would have happened by chance, and God on the sidelines.

Pharaoh was an outstanding example of a person who had several opportunities to choose but God still accomplished exactly what He wanted to do

God made sure the Pharaoh made no choice other than to refuse to accept. Just as Judas had no chlice but to betray Jesus. Just as Paul had no choice but to be "hijacked." Juts as you had no choice but to be born. Just as you have no choice but to die because it's appointed (by God) for all men to die (once). That's what the Bible teaches.

More predestination?

Yes, lots of places in the OT where Israel's enemies' hearts are hardened so they would engage Israel and lose, as per God's wish (and plan).

it is Pharaoh's attitude and continued stubbornness toward God's command that constitutes God “hardening” his heart

Straw men. It says clearly God hardened the Pharaoh's heart so he would refuse to accept. If what you say were true, then it would not be God hardening the Pharaoh's heart but the Pharaoh hardening the Pharaoh's heart. That's not what the Bible says.

747 posted on 07/14/2010 1:44:18 PM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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