Posted on 06/07/2010 7:28:42 AM PDT by topcat54
I knew it would happen. The latest incident in Israel has brought out the prophetic speculators again. “A council of rabbis in Israel says their nation’s conflict with Turkey over a flotilla of ‘aid’ ships headed for the blockaded Gaza Strip controlled by the terrorist Hamas organization just may be the beginning of the ‘Gog and Magog process where the world is against us, but which ends with the third and final redemption’” (see here ). Picking up on the story, Christian prophecy speculator Joel Rosenberg takes a similar position but with some caution:
There is growing interest in the Ezekiel prophecies and whether they could play out in our lifetime. I believe it is still too early to say anything definitively. But I agree that current events are strikingly consistent with the prophecies and I believe it is possible that we could see these events unfold soon. The mention of “Gomer” in Ezekiel, for example, refers to the modern-day State of Turkey which will be an enemy of Israel and part of a Russian-Iranian alliance against the Jewish state. I’m not saying the prophecy will necessarily come to pass soon, but I can’t rule out that possibility. We’ve never seen a convergence of geopolitical and spiritual events so consistent with Ezekiel 38–39 in history like we are seeing today (see here ).One of the arguments used to futurize Ezekiel’s prophecy 2600 years from the time it was written is the claim that the Hebrew word rosh in Ezekiel 38:2–3 and 39:1 sounds like Russia. So then why doesn’t “Gomer” sound like some modern-day nation? Why Turkey? If God wanted to identify Turkey 2600 years ago, then why didn’t He use some sound-alike word that would identify modern Turkey? The same is true of the other nations listed in Ezekiel.
There is no need to speculate beyond the historical boundaries of Ezekiel’s day to force the names of these ancient nations to find a place on a modern-day map and conform to today’s geo-political landscape. Iain Duguid’s comments are helpful in accounting for the historical realities of Ezekiel’s prophecy:
[Gog] is the commander-in-chief ([ chief prince]) of a coalition of forces gathered from the ends of the earth. He himself is from the land of Magog, and he rules over Meshech-Tubal. His allies include Persia, Cush, and Put (38:5), along with Gomer and Beth Togarmah (38:6). It is no coincidence that together these make up a total of seven nations, and it is significant that they are gathered from the uttermost parts of the known world to the prophet. Meshech-Tubal, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah come from the North, Put (Northwest Egypt) and Cush (southern Egypt) from the south and west, while Persia is to the east of Judah.[1]Ezekiel was given a revelation that was describing his world. You don’t have to be a biblical scholar to figure this out. The people making up these nations were alive and well and living in proximity to Israel in Ezekiel’s day. There is no question about this claim. There is no way to refute it. To maintain that the nations that attack Israel are nations in our day is not allowing the Bible to speak for itself. “To seek the fulfillment in the dark region of the end of the days,” Ernest Hengstenberg (1802–1868) writes, “is the less possible, because most of the nations named either no longer exist, or are no longer heathen. Magog, Gomer, Meshech and Tubal, Phut, Sheba, and Dedan, are no more to be found”[2] on any modern map.
If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[3] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:
Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[4]Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from “Persia, Cush, and . . . from the remote parts of the north. . . ,” all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther we learn that the Persian Empire “extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces. . .” in all (Esther 8:9). Ethiopia (Cush) and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1 and 3 and are also found in Ezekiel 38:5. The other nations were in the geographical boundaries “from India to Ethiopia” in the “127 provinces” over which Ahasueras ruled (Esther 1:1). “In other words, the explicit idea that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia is in both passages,”[5] and the nations listed by Ezekiel were part of the Persian empire of his day. The parallels are unmistakable (There are many more parallels that can be found in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future .) Even Ezekiel’s statement that the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in a time when there are “unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11) is not an indication of a distant future fulfillment as Grant Jeffrey attempts to argue:
It is interesting to note that during the lifetime of Ezekiel and up until 1900, virtually all of the villages and cities in the Middle East had walls for defense. Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls. Yet, in our day, Israel is a “land of unwalled villages” for the simple reason that modern techniques of warfare (bombs and missiles) make city walls irrelevant for defense. This is one more indication that his prophecy refers to our modern generation.In Esther we learn that there were Jews who were living peacefully in “unwalled towns” (KJV) (9:19) when Haman conspired against them. Israel’s antagonists in Ezekiel are said to “go up against the land of unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11). The Hebrew word perazah is used in Esther 9:19 and Ezekiel 38:11. This fits the conditions of Esther’s day. Jeffrey is mistaken in his assertion that “Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls.” They seemed to be quite common outside the main cities. Moreover, his contention that Israel is currently “dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense” is patently untrue. Since 2006, the Israeli government has built more than 435 miles of walls in Israel.* * * * *
Ezekiel’s reference to “dwell safely” and “without walls . . . neither bars nor gates” refers precisely to Israel’s current military situation, where she is dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense and where her cities and villages have no walls or defensive bars. The prophet had never seen a city without walls, so he was astonished when he saw, in a vision, Israel dwelling in the future without walls. Ezekiel lived in a time when every city in the world used huge walls for military defense.[6]
There are many more parallels between Ezekiel 38–39 and Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah. I had one emailer argue with me over the above summary interpretation. He fed me all the standard end-time arguments that are popular with interpretations of Ezekiel 38–39. When I told him to purchase my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future and offer a detailed response, he wrote the following: “I’m not buying prophecy books just now, but I will accept a complimentary copy for review.” This is a person who is not serious about Bible study. He’s afraid of what he will find. He wanted to know if I belonged to the “Allegorism school of interpretation” that dismisses a literal interpretation. As I show in my book, I am very literal. I don’t turn horses into “horsepower, bows and arrows into “launching pads” and “missiles,” or chariots into tanks. When the text says “to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods” (Ezek. 38:13), it means silver, gold, cattle, and goods (Ezra 1:4) and not natural gas, potash, or oil.
He and many others like him have adopted a system of interpretation that locks him into a theology of irrelevance. Here is his final comment to me: “Things are winding up very rapidly these days.” Yes they are. We are witnessing the end of humanism. Either get on board to make it happen through the preaching of the gospel, applying the Bible to every area of life, and building an alternative society when the inevitable collapse comes or get out of the way. There won’t be a “rapture” to rescue you. Deal with it.
Endnotes:
1. Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel: The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 448.
2. E. W. Hengstenberg, The Prophecies of the Prophet Ezekiel Elucidated, trans. A. C. Murphy and J. G. Murphy (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1869), 331.
3. James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
4. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
5. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
6. Grant R. Jeffrey, The Next World War: What Prophecy Reveals About Extreme Islam and the West (Colorado Springs, CO: WaterBrook Press, 2006), 143, 147–148.
Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. In 2007, he earned his Ph.D. in Christian Intellectual History from Whitefield Theological Seminary. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandson. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).
I suspect someones prejudice is showing.
Of course, but frustration is a good percentage of the mix.
Maybe we all get too combative when we are on opposite sides of something. I really enjoy the arguments because it pushes me to learn more, but I don't particularly enjoy it when we end up playing "gotcha".
If it's asserted that all the covenant promises given to Israel are now given to Christians aren't the Christians replacing Israel?
If God is done with the Jews and given all the benefits to Christians why has God partially blinded them?
God is "done with the Jews" insofar as the writer of Hebrews tells us...
"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." -- Hebrews 8:13
God has indeed "given all the benefits to the Christians."
It's sort of startling to read otherwise.
The Jews were partially blinded so that the Gentiles would believe. God no longer saves men by their own blood or race or nationality, but by Christ's blood alone. Jews are called to kneel to Christ just like you and me and Buddhhists and Mormons and atheists and democrats.
Christ tells us exactly what has transpired in the entire chapter of John 8...
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -- John 8:31-32"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Later, Paul, a Jew, weeps for his brothers who have not been given faith in Christ. He does, however, hope and pray for their eventual conversion.
And since you are agreed that Satan cannot possibly steal you out of God's hand; that the Shepherd will protect every member of His flock, no matter what, then it only seems reasonable to believe that Satan is indeed bound. He still prowls and still beguiles and destroys the reprobate. But he is impotent against those for whom Christ died.
Bound. Not dead. Bound. Restricted.
Interesting perspective. Since I believe the OT was written expressly to presage Christ who was then fully revealed in the NT, I agree with your distinction.
"For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." -- Isaiah 53:2-10"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." -- Hebrews 8:13
I'm not sure I would have phrased it quite that way, but I do agree that they were saved through faith. The superstars of the Bible in Hebrews 11 all acted on faith. Would you agree that this was different than after the cross?
After the cross it is Faith in The Gospel (death, burial, resurrection of Jesus) but that was a mystery even to the Apostles before cross. Israel was looking for a physical, political, earthly Kingdom with it's King the Messiah, just like the Amils today.
Also, where did the souls of those superstars of the Bible go prior to the cross. I believe Luke 16:19-31 tells us. However after the cross we no longer go to Abraham's bosom, aka paradise. Now we go straight to our Lord Jesus Christ. Another clear distinction between before the cross and after the cross.
IOW, we do clearly see different dispensations between before the cross and after.
The Jews were partially blinded so that the Gentiles would believe. God no longer saves men by their own blood or race or nationality, but by Christ's blood alone.
I've never said otherwise and I haven't heard any premillenialists say otherwise.
And Scripture clearly says that when God has saved all the Gentiles He intends to save Israel (Jews). The only way for this to happen is for them to believe The Gospel, which is exactly what happens during the Tribulation.
And since you are agreed that Satan cannot possibly steal you out of God's hand; that the Shepherd will protect every member of His flock, no matter what, then it only seems reasonable to believe that Satan is indeed bound.
No it does not.
Let me give you a different way to look at this. During Passover the Jewish homes with blood on the posts and lentils were saved, but those without it died. Today we are protected because we are Jesus' flock, but outside of this protection others suffer.
Nah ... like you, we are all busy and must prioritize our list of scholarly reading material.
Not my idea but I have latched onto it as I think Dr Stallard is correct in his thesis. I really would encourage everyone who participates on this board to read Dr Stallards paper. He really does a great job of surveying both side (yes, he is a dispensationalist) and really highlights the fact that when a dispensationalist says "literal interpratation" and a non-dispensationalist says "literal interpreatation" they are talking about two different things.
The non-dispensationalist is likely to come away from the article with a more tempered view of dispensationalists ... and vice versa. He takes the time to quote many authors that the non-disp folks would appreciate (Ladd, Poythress, etc.)
Therein lies the folly of Replacement Theology:
The Covenants, BOTH of them, are made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel - Just to be sure: the Covenant with both Great Houses of Israel precludes any assumption that "spiritual Israel" can be assumed. This is national Israel. Christians are grafted into the Covenant, and thereby beneficiary. But the children of the Gentiles are adopted in, where the natural branches exist:
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
What is "Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away?" It is not gone. it is only "waxing old." When does/did this Covenant disappear? Obviously not with Christ's death, resurrection, or ascension... All of these were already history at the time of this writing...
The Jews were partially blinded so that the Gentiles would believe.
No, The Jews were blinded so that the gentiles could believe... Time for the gentiles to hear and repent... the Church age - It is written that when Israel says (as a nation) "Blessed is he who comes in the Name of the Lord," It is all over.
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Reading through the OT, how many unrighteous Israelites did God save?
I'm not sure that's a good way to frame the question. Clearly, there were souls in Abraham's bossom so some people were saved. Also, Hebrews 11 gives us the superstars of the OT and they were saved.
If you like, use repentance as righteousness, the fear of the Lord and eschewing evil as well. Add to that, keeping the Law.
If God didn't save these unrighteous ones, why not? they were Israelites. Weren't they in the covenants? In fact, time after time, we see great numbers of them destroyed and only a remnant saved.
Before the Cross these saints had faith in God, but they didn't have any idea that Jesus Christ would offer the perfect sacrifice for our sins. IOW, they had faith but not in The Gospel that we've been given after the Cross. We see two dispensations one before and one after the Cross.
In fact, time after time, we see great numbers of them destroyed and only a remnant saved.
But we see this in Christianity today. There are large churches that don't preach The Gospel. Instead we see a mish mash of universalism and works dependent salvation.
Everyone who has heard the Good News of Jesus Christ and the Plan of Salvation and refuses to believe it, is without excuse.
Since God, and God alone, has always been the only Savior, I for one, can't see these "two dispensations".
bttt
But their expectation was that the Messiah would set up a physical, political, religious Kingdom on earth that all nations would look to. They had no idea that the Messiah was coming to set up a spiritual Kingdom. The Gospel was even hid from the Apostles. It was only revealed after the Cross.
Luke 18:31-34
Of course some had faith in the coming of the Christ. That's the point of the Old Testament. The remnant always would be saved, according to God's grace through faith. Read Isaiah 53...
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Psalm 53 isn't talking about a physical army or a victorious warrior. It's telling us of the coming of the Savior who, as a sheep to the slaughter, will take the burden of our sins onto Himself and redeem men through His sacrifice.
One God; one plan of salvation; one dispensation; one remnant; one faith; one Scripture; one Savior.
.Christ came to them, not to us
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