Posted on 06/07/2010 7:28:42 AM PDT by topcat54
I knew it would happen. The latest incident in Israel has brought out the prophetic speculators again. “A council of rabbis in Israel says their nation’s conflict with Turkey over a flotilla of ‘aid’ ships headed for the blockaded Gaza Strip controlled by the terrorist Hamas organization just may be the beginning of the ‘Gog and Magog process where the world is against us, but which ends with the third and final redemption’” (see here ). Picking up on the story, Christian prophecy speculator Joel Rosenberg takes a similar position but with some caution:
There is growing interest in the Ezekiel prophecies and whether they could play out in our lifetime. I believe it is still too early to say anything definitively. But I agree that current events are strikingly consistent with the prophecies and I believe it is possible that we could see these events unfold soon. The mention of “Gomer” in Ezekiel, for example, refers to the modern-day State of Turkey which will be an enemy of Israel and part of a Russian-Iranian alliance against the Jewish state. I’m not saying the prophecy will necessarily come to pass soon, but I can’t rule out that possibility. We’ve never seen a convergence of geopolitical and spiritual events so consistent with Ezekiel 38–39 in history like we are seeing today (see here ).One of the arguments used to futurize Ezekiel’s prophecy 2600 years from the time it was written is the claim that the Hebrew word rosh in Ezekiel 38:2–3 and 39:1 sounds like Russia. So then why doesn’t “Gomer” sound like some modern-day nation? Why Turkey? If God wanted to identify Turkey 2600 years ago, then why didn’t He use some sound-alike word that would identify modern Turkey? The same is true of the other nations listed in Ezekiel.
There is no need to speculate beyond the historical boundaries of Ezekiel’s day to force the names of these ancient nations to find a place on a modern-day map and conform to today’s geo-political landscape. Iain Duguid’s comments are helpful in accounting for the historical realities of Ezekiel’s prophecy:
[Gog] is the commander-in-chief ([ chief prince]) of a coalition of forces gathered from the ends of the earth. He himself is from the land of Magog, and he rules over Meshech-Tubal. His allies include Persia, Cush, and Put (38:5), along with Gomer and Beth Togarmah (38:6). It is no coincidence that together these make up a total of seven nations, and it is significant that they are gathered from the uttermost parts of the known world to the prophet. Meshech-Tubal, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah come from the North, Put (Northwest Egypt) and Cush (southern Egypt) from the south and west, while Persia is to the east of Judah.[1]Ezekiel was given a revelation that was describing his world. You don’t have to be a biblical scholar to figure this out. The people making up these nations were alive and well and living in proximity to Israel in Ezekiel’s day. There is no question about this claim. There is no way to refute it. To maintain that the nations that attack Israel are nations in our day is not allowing the Bible to speak for itself. “To seek the fulfillment in the dark region of the end of the days,” Ernest Hengstenberg (1802–1868) writes, “is the less possible, because most of the nations named either no longer exist, or are no longer heathen. Magog, Gomer, Meshech and Tubal, Phut, Sheba, and Dedan, are no more to be found”[2] on any modern map.
If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[3] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:
Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[4]Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from “Persia, Cush, and . . . from the remote parts of the north. . . ,” all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther we learn that the Persian Empire “extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces. . .” in all (Esther 8:9). Ethiopia (Cush) and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1 and 3 and are also found in Ezekiel 38:5. The other nations were in the geographical boundaries “from India to Ethiopia” in the “127 provinces” over which Ahasueras ruled (Esther 1:1). “In other words, the explicit idea that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia is in both passages,”[5] and the nations listed by Ezekiel were part of the Persian empire of his day. The parallels are unmistakable (There are many more parallels that can be found in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future .) Even Ezekiel’s statement that the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in a time when there are “unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11) is not an indication of a distant future fulfillment as Grant Jeffrey attempts to argue:
It is interesting to note that during the lifetime of Ezekiel and up until 1900, virtually all of the villages and cities in the Middle East had walls for defense. Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls. Yet, in our day, Israel is a “land of unwalled villages” for the simple reason that modern techniques of warfare (bombs and missiles) make city walls irrelevant for defense. This is one more indication that his prophecy refers to our modern generation.In Esther we learn that there were Jews who were living peacefully in “unwalled towns” (KJV) (9:19) when Haman conspired against them. Israel’s antagonists in Ezekiel are said to “go up against the land of unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11). The Hebrew word perazah is used in Esther 9:19 and Ezekiel 38:11. This fits the conditions of Esther’s day. Jeffrey is mistaken in his assertion that “Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls.” They seemed to be quite common outside the main cities. Moreover, his contention that Israel is currently “dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense” is patently untrue. Since 2006, the Israeli government has built more than 435 miles of walls in Israel.* * * * *
Ezekiel’s reference to “dwell safely” and “without walls . . . neither bars nor gates” refers precisely to Israel’s current military situation, where she is dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense and where her cities and villages have no walls or defensive bars. The prophet had never seen a city without walls, so he was astonished when he saw, in a vision, Israel dwelling in the future without walls. Ezekiel lived in a time when every city in the world used huge walls for military defense.[6]
There are many more parallels between Ezekiel 38–39 and Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah. I had one emailer argue with me over the above summary interpretation. He fed me all the standard end-time arguments that are popular with interpretations of Ezekiel 38–39. When I told him to purchase my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future and offer a detailed response, he wrote the following: “I’m not buying prophecy books just now, but I will accept a complimentary copy for review.” This is a person who is not serious about Bible study. He’s afraid of what he will find. He wanted to know if I belonged to the “Allegorism school of interpretation” that dismisses a literal interpretation. As I show in my book, I am very literal. I don’t turn horses into “horsepower, bows and arrows into “launching pads” and “missiles,” or chariots into tanks. When the text says “to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods” (Ezek. 38:13), it means silver, gold, cattle, and goods (Ezra 1:4) and not natural gas, potash, or oil.
He and many others like him have adopted a system of interpretation that locks him into a theology of irrelevance. Here is his final comment to me: “Things are winding up very rapidly these days.” Yes they are. We are witnessing the end of humanism. Either get on board to make it happen through the preaching of the gospel, applying the Bible to every area of life, and building an alternative society when the inevitable collapse comes or get out of the way. There won’t be a “rapture” to rescue you. Deal with it.
Endnotes:
1. Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel: The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 448.
2. E. W. Hengstenberg, The Prophecies of the Prophet Ezekiel Elucidated, trans. A. C. Murphy and J. G. Murphy (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1869), 331.
3. James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
4. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
5. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
6. Grant R. Jeffrey, The Next World War: What Prophecy Reveals About Extreme Islam and the West (Colorado Springs, CO: WaterBrook Press, 2006), 143, 147–148.
Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. In 2007, he earned his Ph.D. in Christian Intellectual History from Whitefield Theological Seminary. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandson. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).
lol. Arguing the end to the end. 8~)
Yep! bttt
THX WILL CHECK IT OUT.
THX THX.
On the other hand, with different fingers,
shiny broken links are so entertaining to the rabid clique sorts . . .
evidently.
worthy points, imho.
THX.
What about the Thessalonians that thought they had missed the Rapture. They predate Augustinian Replacement Theology by about 300 yrs.
What about Chiliasm that predates the idea that a state church will pave the way for Jesus Christ to return.
From what I can tell dispensationalism is consistent with these earlier premillenial views.
ABSOLUTELY, INDEED.
THX.
I still think your eschatology is incredibly out of whack with Scripture, history and reality.
That’s okay. We’ll know the truth one day when we meet up in heaven. 8~)
On the other hand, with different fingers, shiny broken links are so entertaining to the rabbit clik sorts . . . evidently.
It's a school night. Catch up on your sleep and try again tomorrow.
True. True.
Let me reciprocate by pointing you to a very detailed study of the OT prophecies concerning the millenium. It can be found here
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/premillennialism-in-old-testament
What I especially liked about the study was the end part that highlights what the nations of today will look like in the Millenium. For example ... will there be an Egypt? Iraq?, Iran?, Saudi Arabia? ... How will they make peace with Israel (if). I had never seen anyone document that in one place before.
But the chart merely highlights the end result of our two interpretive schemes. The heart of the matter is the interpretation of the OT text.
Where we disagree is in the theological methodology used for the formation of a Biblical Theology of the Old Testament. The dispensationalist forms a Biblical theology of the OT based on the historical-grammatical interpretation of the OT text. The non-dispensationalist would form a Biblical theology of the OT based on the New Testament understanding of the OT text what we would call "reading the NT back into the OT." This is the heart of the matter, we see a distinction between Israel and the church because a Biblical theology of the OT demands it.
Dr Stallard has provided a pretty good article on this topic.
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/literal-hermeneutics-theological-method-and-essence-of-dispensationalism
enjoy ...
One possibility of a “rapture” that Paul was talking about, might be seen in Elijah’s ascent into heaven on God’s chariot. Christ’s ascent was likely similar, altho we don’t have a detailed account, even with the apostles watching. An intriguing aspect of Elijah’s is first he tells Elisha that he has been summoned to Bethel, literally, the “house of God.” Then later, he crosses the Jordan river after first making it “dry land”. In some respects, this is every believer’s experience, so individually, as well as collectively, like the Israelites’ crossing of the Jordan into the promised land, we will all experience it
You strike me as someone who might actually read something. Could I suggest ...I will take that as a compliment and I will put it on the long list of books I'm working my way through. :)
I suspect that there is, somewhere, a dispensational Index Prohibitorum, with books and authors dispensationalists simply won't look at. Many august and saintly authors, ancient and modern, are on it. From Athanaseus and Augustine to Warfield, "scripture twisters!" all.
The Gentiles have received The Gospel. It doesn't coincide that Satan is bound and in prison.
There is a difference between the nation of Israel and spiritual Israel. All men everywhere today are called to kneel to Christ alone.
I've never heard any Christian claim otherwise. However, I think you are reaching with the spiritual Israel. If God is done with the Jews and given all the benefits to Christians why has God partially blinded them?
Let me ask, prior to the crucifixion how were people saved and was that salvation limited to any one group?
Great point.
The example that God will take us up is there. The question is when. I think it will be prior to the pre-trib, others do make a good argument it will be mid-trib. The weakest argument is it will be just as Jesus Christ is descending to set up the Kingdom of God.
I suspect someones prejudice is showing.
Scripture is so much clearer when reading it with the understanding that God is not done with Israel and the Tribulation is the means that God uses to open Israel's eyes to who Jesus is. The Amil view is similar to the view held by Israel prior to the Cross with the exception that Christians have replaced the Jews. If this is true why has God blinded Israel in part? Why be bothered with the Jews at all?
Again, this “replacement” is not true and it isn’t claimed. One Israel, from the church in the wilderness (Acts 7) to Pentecost to today. Spiritual Israel is ever the only Israel saved.
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