Replies

I read the article, but I am still a Calvinist.

What I would really like to know is which is the “true” church, the Roman Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church?

What I would really like to know is which is the “true” church, the Roman Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church?

We are both lungs of the "true Church" united in valid Sacraments as our Orthodox brothers here on FR often said.

What I would really like to know is which is the “true” church, the Roman Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church?

On a doctrinal basis, I don't believe you would find much, if anything, of substance between the two. There are different constructs used to describe things, but when you get down to the core of the matter, those are mostly "tomato" "tomahto" differences.

Both entities share legitimate apostolic succession and have valid sacramental systems. Both assisted in formulating and compiling the current Bible over the first 400 years of church history and in warding off early heresies as Gnosticism and Arianism which posed a much greater threat to Christianity than protestantism. These churches are not for everybody for many are called but few chosen. The Eastern churches e.g. Russian , Greek are very nationalistic and one must accept that salient fact.

These churches are not for all and to remain Calvinistic might be better for some. Read the early church fathers to obtain insight as to how closely your particular church resembles the churches of the first century.

Watch the replies to this question multiply!

The answer is found in the epistles of Paul. From Romans through Philemon. You will find the beginning of The Church The Body of Christ, the reasons and workings of the Church Which is His Body, and even what happens to this Church.

Sorry you have missed these threads. The Catholic Church is the oldest Church. You will be in my prayers.

THE RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH -- There are many!
How Did the Catholic Church Get Her Name?
Catholics, Protestants, and History (the faith of the early church)
Organization of the Catholic Church
How Old Is Your Church?

What I would really like to know is which is the “true” church, the Roman Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Simple answer -- BOTH. And include the Oriental and Assyrian Churches. All four are part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Calvinism's flaw lies in it's legalistic either/or approach, whereas God works in an "and" approach. The Eastern Orthodox, the Orientals, the Catholics and the Assyrian Churches all are Apostolic and all are part of the TRUE Church.

Deviants from the Apostolic Church are well, outside The Church.

Some Protestant groupings like the traditional Anglican and the Lutherans are close, very close to the Apostolic Church. Others, like the JWs, Unitarians etc. are terribly far away.

Quoting “What I would really like to know is which is the “true” church, the Roman Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church?”

Answer - The Body of Christ is the true Church. It is not a building not a denomination not either Catholic nor Orthodox.

THe Body of Christ is true believers in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. I am a solid Calvinist and I came out of the VRS church...as the book of Revelation warns us...

Re: What I would really like to know is which is the “true” church, the Roman Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church?

The so-called Orthodox are heretics and schismatics, they are in no way part of the Catholic Church.

DOGMA

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

CATECHISM

from : MY CATHOLIC FAITH

71. Schism and Heresy

What is schism; and what is heresy? --Schism is the refusal to submit to the authority of the Pope; heresy is the formal denial or doubt by a baptized person of any revealed truth of the Catholic Faith.

What were the most important schisms and heresies that have tried to destroy the Church? ......

The greatest schism suffered by the Christian Church was that of the East, resulting in the establishment of the Orthodox Eastern Church. The Eastern emperors, desiring more power in the Church, tried to make the patriarchs of Constantinople independent of Rome. Finally, Photius, with the support of the emperor, held a council of Eastern bishops in the year 867, and broke from Rome.

The cause of the schism was not doctrinal, but rather political and material,-jealousy between the East and the West. It has resulted in the separation from Rome of 145 million people with valid priesthood and sacraments. In the United States there are a number of schismatical churches, among them the Greek Orthodox, and the Russian Church.

After minor schisms and misunderstandings between East and West in 1054 there was a final break by Cerularius, patriarch of Constantinople, continuing today.

Today the Orthodox Eastern Church remains in schism, but does not spread. It is a withered branch, having cut itself off from the parent tree.

The Orthodox Eastern Church denies the Catholic dogma that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son. It also teaches that the souls of the just will not attain complete happiness till the end of the world, when they will be joined to their bodies; and that the souls of the wicked will not suffer complete torture in hell until that last day. These are heresies against the doctrines of the Church.

Thus it can be seen that today the Orthodox Eastern Church is not merely schismatical, but truly heretical; for it holds primary doctrines in a different light. But it has valid orders. (See Chapter 55 on The Catholic Eastern Church; Rites) END

It is not correct to say, as Markomalley implies, that all of the doctrines of the so-called Orthodox Church are in agreement with Catholic doctrine. There are major divergences, since the “Orthodox” Church denies the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son, which is a dogma Catholics profess in the Creed. It also denies the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady, as well as the dogma of Papal Infallibility. Besides these dogmas, there are still many other doctrinal points, such the monarchical structure of the Catholic Church,the role of the Sovereign Pontiff in this monarchy that it rejects, Limbo, purgatory, andthe indissolubility of marriage, to name but a few. These mentioned differences are more than enough to show that the “Orthodox” are not orthodox at all, but normally should be called heretics, since they deny at least three Catholic dogmas.

On the other hand, the Catholic Church has always recognized the validity of all the heretical and schismatic clergy with proper apostolic succession, ..Eastern Orthodox ..also has valid clergy and sacraments," (that means ALL the sacraments, which includes baptism, are valid)

"however, other than valid baptism...(WHICH IS EFFICACIOUS ONLY FOR) ..children below the age of reason (because they do not reject the Catholic Church, it is not possible, they have not reached the age of reason, they are babies. Therefore, the ONLY sacrament of the orthodox which is efficacious is baptism, BUT only for those who have not reached the age of reason), ALL the sacraments are of no efficacy to someone who is outside the Catholic Church because of heresy and schism. The sacraments are real (and valid), but the recipient is in a state of sin, in his heresy and schism, ....adulterous 3rd marriage, therefore, in a manner of speaking, one could say that the very next second, the state of sin returns. This is why Cantate Domino says "only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards".

"In short, a dying Catholic can (in an emergency)receive the sacraments of an Eastern Orthodox priest and they have the same efficacy as if he had received them from a Catholic priest. If a heretic receives the same, and is steadfast in his denial of the authority of the pope, and steadfast in all the heresies, and other sins, the sacraments have no efficacy. To be blunt, like giving vitamins to a corpse!"

FATHERS OF CHURCH

Here's pre-1054 Saints that concur with all that I have said:

If anyone condemns the dogmas or decrees promulgated for the Catholic faith and the correction of the faithful by one presiding in the Apostolic See, let him be anathema. (Pope St. Nicholas the Great)

Blessed Peter received the keys of the kingdom in such a way that all may understand that whosoever shall cut themselves off in any way cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. Peter is the doorkeeper whom I will not contradict lest, when I come to the gates of Heaven, there should be no one to open them, since he will be my adversary who is proven to have the keys. (St. Bede the Venerable)

Hold most firmly, and never doubt in the least, that outside the Catholic Church the Sacrament of Baptism cannot be of any profit; nay, just as within the Church salvation is conferred through the Sacrament of Baptism upon those who believe rightly, so too, outside the Catholic Church, ruin is heaped up for those who were baptized by that same Baptism, if they do not return to the Church. (St Fulgentius)

There is no salvation outside the Church, and therefore whatever things of the Church are had outside the Church do not avail unto salvation. (St Augustine)

Anyone who receives the Sacrament of Baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic church, receives the whole Sacrament; however, he will not have salvation if he has that Sacrament outside the Catholic Church. Eternal life can never in any way be obtained by anyone who, with the Sacrament of Baptism, remains a stranger to the Catholic Church. Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that no person baptized outside the Catholic Church can become a partaker of eternal life if, before the end of this earthly life, he has not returned, and been incorporated into the Catholic Church. (St. Fulgentius)

Some men can receive Baptism outside the Church, but no one can either receive or possess salvation outside the Church. For the water of the Church is salutary and holy for those who use it well, but outside the Church no one can use it well. (St. Augustine)

There are many heresies which utilize the words of Baptism, but not in a proper sense, nor with sound faith; and, in consequence, the water which they pour is unprofitable, so that he who is sprinkled by them is polluted rather than redeemed. (St. Athanasius)

Although among heretics and schismatics there is the same Baptism, nevertheless, remission of sins is not operative among them because of the rottenness of discord and wickedness of dissension. (St. Augustine)

Baptism does not profit a man outside unity with the Church, for many heretics also possess this Sacrament, but not the fruits of salvation. Children baptized in other communions cease to be members of the Church when, after reaching the age of reason,they make formal profession of heresy, as, for example, by receiving communion in a non Catholic church. (St. Augustine)