Posted on 05/27/2010 6:44:33 AM PDT by Colofornian
The discussion on Book of Mormon geography was getting heated. Scholars gathered in Provo, Utah, to discuss their theories about where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place. Some placed the Nephite capital city Zarahemla in Mesoamerica, others in South America. Others argued for a setting in the American heartland.
The president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attended the two-day Book of Mormon convention. Although he found the discussion interesting, he was obviously concerned that people were getting a little too worked up about their geographic theories. He decided to intervene.
The Book of Mormon geography conference was held at Brigham Young Academy on May 23-24, 1903. But the advice President Joseph F. Smith gave at that conference 107 years ago could apply equally to current disputes over Book of Mormon geography.
"President Smith spoke briefly," the Deseret News account summarized, "and expressed the idea that the question of the city (of Zarahemla) was one of interest certainly, but if it could not be located the matter was not of vital importance, and if there were differences of opinion on the question it would not affect the salvation of the people; and he advised against students considering it of such vital importance as the principles of the Gospel."
More recently, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism described how "Church leadership officially and consistently distances itself from issues regarding Book of Mormon geography."
But the lack of an official position hasn't squelched interest. The subject attracts highly trained archaeologists and scholars and informed — and not-so-informed — amateurs and enthusiasts. Books, lectures and even Book of Mormon lands tours abound.
But something is rotten in Zarahemla — wherever it may be.
In the middle of what could be a fun and intellectually exciting pursuit similar to archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann's famous search for the lost city of Troy, there are accusations of disloyalty tantamount to apostasy.
In one corner is the more-established idea of a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. This theory places the events of the book in a limited geographic setting that is about the same size as ancient Israel. The location is in southern Mexico and Guatemala. The person most often associated with this theory is John L. Sorenson, a retired professor of anthropology at BYU, and the author of "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon" and a series of articles on Book of Mormon geography that ran in the Ensign magazine in September and October 1984. A new book, tentatively titled "Mormon's Codex," is in the process of being published.
In the other corner is the challenger, a new theory that places Book of Mormon events in a North American "heartland" setting. Like the Mesoamerican theory, it also is limited in area — but not quite as limited. Its symbolic head is Rod L. Meldrum and, more recently, Bruce H. Porter. Meldrum and Porter are the co-authors of the book "Prophecies and Promises," which promotes the heartland setting.
It wouldn't be hard to predict that some friction might come about from competing theories — that healthy sparring would occur with arguments and counter-arguments. But it has gone beyond that.
The source of the animosity comes from the heartland theory's mantra: "Joseph knew."
Joseph Smith made several statements that can be interpreted to have geographic implications. Proponents of a North American setting see these statements as authoritative and based in revelation. Mesoamerican theorists think that Joseph Smith's ideas about geography expanded over time and included approval of at least some connection to Central America.
To the heartlander, Joseph's knowledge about Book of Mormon locations is seen as proof of his divine calling and a testament to his being the chosen translator/expert of the book. Joseph didn't just know; he knew everything. This position, however, leaves little room for other opinions — or for charity.
"The way I look at Joseph Smith's statements is that he either knew or he didn't know. If he knew, he knew by revelation. And if he didn't know, you've got to ask yourself why he said the things that he said," Porter said. "If he didn't know, was he trying to show off? If he really didn't know, why was he telling people?
"My feeling is that Joseph Smith did not lie," Porter said.
If you don't agree with this line of reasoning, by implication, you think that Joseph lied.
"My authority is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon," Porter said. "Most of your Mesoamerican theorists, their authority is John Sorenson and Matthew Roper. They picked those as their authority at the neglect of Joseph Smith."
Matthew P. Roper, a research scholar at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute Of Religious Scholarship, naturally doesn't like this characterization. "They seem to be trying to elevate a question of lesser importance, Book of Mormon geography, to the level of the doctrines of the church," Roper said. "And even though they give lip service to things like they know the church has not given an official position, they turn around and say, 'All these people are dismissing Joseph Smith.' "
It is somewhat ironic that believing that Joseph did not "know" also supports Joseph as a prophet. The more Joseph's assumptions about Book of Mormon geography prove to be wrong, the greater a testimony that he did not write the book himself. "We assume," Roper said, "that since Joseph Smith was the translator of the Book of Mormon, and that it was translated by the gift and power of God, that he would know everything about the book that an author would. I would submit that the two are not the same thing. I could translate the 'Wars of Caesar' and not know anything about ancient Gaul or the different tribes."
When Meldrum's theories first became popularized through firesides and a DVD he produced, the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR) took notice and responded with gusto.
"The way he said things, they attack that more than they attack the evidence that he presented," Porter said.
Scott Gordon, president of FAIR, would not disagree. "We view this as a steadying-of-the-ark issue. We really don't care where he picks for his theory on where the Book of Mormon can take place," Gordon said. "What we care about that he is implying that the church is not following the teachings of Joseph Smith. Which means the church leadership, the prophet — everything is not following. And we think that is a very, very dangerous position."
"They are getting really worried because they are seeing this is becoming a movement. That's their words," Meldrum said. "They are just saying it's a movement because they are getting a lot of flak from people who are seeing the DVD and the information and thinking, 'You know what, this makes a lot of sense.' "
But supporters also see the heartland theory as an inspired movement that will transform the LDS Church: "(V)ery few people out there fully grasp the magnitude of this movement and the powerful influence that it is having and the sweeping nature of its message," wrote one prominent supporter. "It will sweep the church and most LDS will not even understand what happened until it's past. … Time is our friend."
A movement — about geography?
Historian Ronald O. Barney has seen similar attitudes in some people supporting Mesoamerica. One person described a particular Mesoamerican book as "life-transforming" and that the book "changed the way I think about everything."
Life-transforming?
"People are hanging their faith on evidence of Book of Mormon peoples," Barney said.
"I just think that this way of thinking about our religion is such a waste of time," Barney said, "It almost suggests we don't trust the Holy Ghost. Not only are we worried that he won't reveal to people the truthfulness of the book, but we want to augment it — even if we have to bend and distort — so that there can be no mistake about its truthfulness."
Meldrum said he doesn't hang his testimony on the heartland theory.
"I don't know that this geography is true. I've said that many times and I want to make sure that that's clear. If President Monson was to tomorrow say, 'You know what? I've had a revelation and the Book of Mormon occurred in Indonesia,' you know what? I'm with him." Meldrum said with a laugh.
John L. Sorenson stands by the Mesoamerican theory, but also the Prophet.
"(Geography) wasn't very important to him and he didn't know much about it," Sorenson said. "Joseph knew what he knew — and what he knew was far more important than geography."
Joseph's nephew, President Joseph F. Smith, would probably agree.
Three years ago today, May 30, 2007, the “Flying Inman” designation was bestowed upon us. We honor three years’ of self-sacrificial service all day today!
(By designating today as Flying Inman Remembrance Day, we take nothing away from the brave men and women who serve us in our armed forces. They, in fact, flesh out what it means to engage in warfare. They give us a living word picture of what spiritual warfare is all about, even in victory. Our armed forces, when they defeated the Japanese and Germany, didn’t gloat over them...didn’t treat them beyond what justice deserved...and in fact, was merciful to the point of rebuilding their lives and economies. So, too, we celebrate our victory in Jesus Christ.)
We want to make it plain to those who follow Joseph Smith: YOU are not our enemies! YOU are our prize! We desire for you to accompany us to heaven!
We love Mormons. And I appreciate you Mormons who have sacrificed of your time to converse with us! Restornu, Saundra Duffy, Logophile, Normandy, Ripliancum, Reno232, the rest, we appreciate you!
We love you, often with a tough love, but yes, still a love. Aside from anything you DO, you are esteemed greatly in Heavenly Father's eyes. He loves you. He looks forward to a reconciliation, and a putting away of any barriers that may block the way.
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Those doctrines haven't remained in the ethereal floating around. They've been translated into false prophets' works and words.
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Colofornian
I still want a jacket patch! ;-)
And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
And the number of the army of the horsemen [were] two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses [were] as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails [were] like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
If you are saying that Jesus would never destroy people, then you must also reject the Book of Isaiah in the Old Testament. For in the 63rd chapter we find prophesied the returning Jesus Christ destroying people with vengeance in His heart:
Who [is] this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this [that is] glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
Wherefore [art thou] red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
For the day of vengeance [is] in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
John, I know you put the word "If" in front of these statements, but you're insinuating I said this or believe. I didn't (say this), and I don't (believe this).
You can't wrestle what I said out of context. And the context was a reaction to this statement of yours: "Its account of the ministry of Jesus Christ to the Nephites was stunningly beautiful to me."
Now are you going to relook at my previous post re: the Book of Mormon jesus' "ministry" to the Nephites, and then review these words of yours, "stunningly beautiful" and take them back, or hold your ground on this statement?
Because if you're going to hold your ground on this, I don't see people burning to death, mass drownings, buried by earth turf, as "stunningly beautiful" acts. Do you? Do you really?
Now, since we know divine acts have done this in other locales, I'm not talking about His sovereign or just nature which allows Him to engage in it.
What I'm talking about is that Jesus came to SAVE the world. And you have come to buy into a book which presents Jesus as coming to CONDEMN it. (No wonder LDS don't honor the cross and don't really celebrate Easter/Jesus' cross resurrection; is that true also of the RLDS?)
Bottom line: I sharply disagree with your presentation of the Book of Mormon treatment of a Jesus with the Nephites as "stunningly beautiful." It wasn't. You have mischaracterized and misrepresented the Book of Mormon to people at-large. And I'm simply asking you to readjust your statement.
And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus spoken, he cast his eyes round about again on the multitude, and beheld they were in tears, and did look steadfastly upon him, as if they would ask him to tarry a little longer with them.
And he said unto them, Behold, my bowels are filled with compassion towards you: Have ye any that are sick among you, bring them hither.
Have ye any that are lame, or blind, or halt, or maimed, or leprous, or that are withered, or that are deaf, or that are afflicted in any manner, bring them hither, and I will heal them, for I have compassion upon you;
My bowels are filled with mercy; for I perceive that ye desire that I should shew unto you what I have done unto your brethren at Jerusalem, for I see that your faith is sufficient, that I should heal you.
And it came to pass that when he had thus spoken, all the multitude, with one accord, did go forth, with their sick, and their afflicted, and their lame, and with their blind, and with their dumb, and with all they that were afflicted in any manner; and he did heal them every one as they were brought forth unto him;
And they did all, both they who had been healed, and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him;
And as many as could come, for the multitude, did kiss his feet, insomuch that they did bathe his feet with their tears.
And it came to pass that he commanded that their little children should be brought.
So they brought their little children and sat them down upon the ground round about him, and Jesus stood in the midst; and the multitude gave way till they had all been brought unto him.
And it came to pass that when they had all been brought, and Jesus stood in the midst, he commanded the multitude that they should kneel down upon the ground.
And it came to pass that when they had knelt upon the ground, Jesus groaned within himself, and saith, Father, I am troubled because of the wickedness of the people of the house of Israel.
And when he had said these words, he himself also knelt upon the earth, and behold he prayed unto the Father, and the things which he prayed, can not be written, and the multitude did bear record who heard him.
And after this manner do they bear record; the eye hath never seen, neither hath the ear heard, before, so great and marvelous things as we saw and heard Jesus speak unto the Father;
And no tongue can speak, neither can there be written by any man, neither can the hearts of men conceive so great and marvelous things as we both saw and heard Jesus speak;
And no one can conceive of the joy which filled our souls at the time we heard him pray for us unto the Father.
And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of praying unto the Father, he arose; but so great was the joy of the multitude, that they were overcome.
And it came to pass that Jesus spake unto them, and bade them arise.
And they arose from the earth, and he said unto them, Blessed are ye because of your faith. And now behold my joy is full.
And when he had said these words, he wept, and the multitude bear record of it, and he took their little children, one by one, and blessed them, and prayed unto the Father for them.
And when he had done this he wept again, and he spake unto the multitude, and saith unto them, Behold your little ones.
And as they looked to behold, they cast their eyes towards heaven, and they saw the heavens open, and they saw angels descending out of heaven as it were, in the midst of fire; and they came down and encircled those little ones about;
And they were encircled about with fire; and the angels did minister unto them, and the multitude did see and hear, and bear record; and they know that their record is true, for they all of them did see and hear, every man for himself;
And they were in number about two thousand and five hundred souls; and they did consist of men, women and children.
Now THAT is what I'd call "getting personal"!
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
The best part about sadness of losing your parents and the sweetness of this day of remembrance is that now they are gone to that great beyond and they now know the truth about Mormonism. SWEET!
Come and see us in August
The beauty of Christ's ministry in America inspired me in 1987 to write this poem:
Behold the Children
Christ shall gently lead
Those who are with young,
Touching every need
With a love that's sung,
"Behold the children in God's love."
Boys and girls become
Men and women soon.
Mellow voices hum
In a joyful tune,
"Behold the children in God's love."
Parents ever grieve
If their children stray,
And when children leave
Quavering voices say,
"Behold the children in God's love."
At the end of years
There before God's throne
Truths revealed through tears
Angel songs intone,
"Behold the children in God's love."
There's been a certain case in Utah, where a man kidnapped a teen-age girl, claimed to make her his "wife," and raped her daily.
Now, I suppose if we had access to this perp's "journal" during the kidnapping ordeal, journals like those in the lds and flds cultures are encouraged to keep, we might find some "compassionate" and "tender" entry on a particular day of how he "loved" his "wife."
But would that match overall reality? Even if one account could be truthfully rendered as to how "tender" he was toward his victim on a specific day, much like how "tender" the Book of Mormon jesus (who is not THE Jesus), that would not in any way, shape, or form offset what this rapist did to this victim.
So, likewise, for you to publish this section of verses, without bothering to mention that "Oh, BTW, the Book of Mormon jesus then proceeded to burn, drown, and bury them alive" is a major "joke" of a presentation by you!
What you have done would be tantamount to Joseph Smith taking the Upper room scene, where He was most tender toward the disciples, washing their feet, loving them with a servant-leaders' love...and then "JSTing"/"Inspired Versioning" it to death by adding a scene where the Smithian Jesus proceeds then to go downstairs, round up the townspeople, and proceed to burn, drown and bury them alive.
Do you think if Smith added such a scene to the JST/IV that people would come away reading that, "Oh, how 'stunningly beautiful.' How 'compassionate.' How 'tender.'"???
You can't wrestle one portion of 3 Nephi out of context with the 3 Nephi chapters 8-12! Because if you do, then you present a partial picture. It misrepresents the Book of Mormon jesus.
[Except that Jesus explicitly said NOT to keep back children from coming unto Him...and the Lds/Rlds advice to families is for 7 yo & younger not to come to His baptism hand...where the Body of Christ baptizes them in the singular NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19)]
Now that's a cause for tears!
I still want a jacket patch!
- - - -
I am pricing them. We still need to decide on a logo though.
How do we know? Because it militates against the very purposes Jesus said represented His Father: 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (John 3:17)
Anybody reading about the Book of Mormon jesus having an anger fit upon dying, smoting 70,000 - 90,000 people with fiery, watery, and earthy deaths - would have to proclaim John/Jesus re: John 3:17 words as "lyin'" words!
I am pricing them. We still need to decide on a logo though. [Reaganaut]
Well, the logo should be built around the concept of "standing up"...
Standing up in an airplane is what the "flying imams" did...
The first official Protestant, Martin Luther, said, "Here I stand. I can do no other."
Evangelicals sing, "Stand up, stand up for Jesus."
And the most literal meaning of the Greek word for "resurrection" used in the NT is "stand up"
In doing a little research at the COC site, I noticed the SLC website ends with D&C Section 138, while the official COC website has an article on D&C 164.
This is a very interesting article, as IMO it shows to some extent, the great divide between the course taken by the COC and that of the SLC mormon church.
Section 164 is quite an eye opener. Can you point me to a website with more COC doctrinal information?
The destructions that occurred in Mesoamerica during the time that Jesus was suffering on the cross happened about a year prior to Christ visiting His people in Mesoamerica and blessing their children, as I have quoted from 3 Nephi. So your "jesus then proceeded to burn, drown, and bury" is a misrepresentation. The people who were destroyed a year earlier had been exceedingly wicked. The people that Jesus Christ came to minister to were Christians. They were at a religious gathering near the temple in the Land Bountiful when Jesus Christ descended from heaven to teach them in fulfillment of His promise in John 10:16: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice..."
Found a halfway decent badge generator, though.
To the southeast of the Temple is the huge Auditorium.
CORRECTION:
To the southwest of the Temple is the huge Auditorium.
St George vanquished the dragon...
That would fit
:)
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