Posted on 05/27/2010 6:44:33 AM PDT by Colofornian
Geeze, lighten up. Guy’s a dork with coke bottle glasses.
You don’t actually expect a Zebra to act differently and you can’t be surprised by their appearance, by now. LOL
ohhhh...bright shiny objects! (sorry, I must be part raccoon).
LOL. Yeah but sometimes you gotta go back to ‘mormon threads 101’ with the newbies. And I am in a fiesty mood today.
All old ground, in Freeperville:
Godzilla posted the following just last April: See http://209.157.64.200/focus/religion/2482834/posts?page=1550 ... with Godzilla giving a few further links: From The Changing World of Mormonism, chapter 5. (also here: http://blog.mrm.org/2010/03/the-three-witnesses-and-reality/)
Martin Harris: Belonged to five different religions before becoming a Mormon; after leaving the LDS Church he changed his religious affiliation 8 more times. The LDS publication Millennial Star reported that Harris “became partially deranged…flying from one thing to another.” Phineas Young wrote his brother Brigham, “Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was of the Book of Mormon” Harris later joined the Strangites, a rival Mormon church, and even went on a mission to England for that group. The Millennial Star said, “In one of his fits of monomania, he [Harris] went and joined the ‘Shakers’ or followers of Anna Lee. …but since Strang has made his entry…Martin leaves the ‘Shakers,’ whom he knows to be right,…and joins Strang….if the Saints wish to know what the Lord hath said to him they may turn to…the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and the person there called a ‘wicked man’ is no other than Martin Harris…Elder Wheelock will remember that evil men, like Harris, out of the evil treasure of their hearts bring forth evil things….” Harris became part of another “Testimony of Three Witnesses” which supported David Whitmer as the rightful successor to Joseph Smith. Harris rejoined the LDS Church late in his life, but one can’t help but wonder how things may have played out if his life had been extended a few more years.
Oliver Cowdery: According to Joseph Smith, while still a Mormon in good standing, Cowdery was deceived by false revelations received via a peep-stone belonging to a different Book of Mormon witness, one of the eight, Hiram Page. Years later Cowdery accused Joseph Smith of adultery and heresy. Smith accused Cowdery of stealing and uniting “with a gang of counterfeiters, thieves, liars, and blacklegs of the deepest dye, to deceive, cheat, and defraud the saints…” After Cowdery was excommunicated from the LDS Church, the Mormon publication Times and Seasons published a poem suggesting Cowdery had doubts about his testimony of the Book of Mormon. About the same time (1841), Cowdery joined the Methodist Protestant Church in Tiffin, Ohio. A sworn affidavit by a man named C.J. Keen recounts, “Mr. Cowdery expressed a desire to associate himself with a Methodist Protestant Church of this city….he was unanimously admitted a member thereof. At that time he arose and addressed the audience present, admitted his error and implored forgiveness, and said he was sorry and ashamed of his connection with Mormonism.” Cowdery was rebaptized LDS in 1848. However, according to David Whitmer, Cowdery died with a firm testimony that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet and that Doctrine and Covenants was filled with errors.
David Whitmer: Was also deceived by Hiram Page’s peep-stone, and was accused of joining the same gang of “blacklegs” with which Cowdery was accused of being involved. Years after his 1838 excommunication from the LDS Church, Whitmer supported the Strangite movement for a time, but switched to a church being formed by William McLellin in 1848. Whitmer was to be the prophet of this new church, and in one revelation he claimed he received from God, he was told that the Mormons “polluted my name, and have done continually wickedness in my sight.” Whitmer never rejoined the LDS Church. In 1887, the year before his death, he published An Address to All Believers in The Book of Mormon. Whitmer wrote, “Now, in 1849 the Lord saw fit to manifest unto John Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and myself nearly all the errors in doctrine into which we had been led by the heads of the old [LDS] church. We were shown that the Book of Doctrine and Covenants contained many doctrines of error, and that it must be laid aside…. They were led out of their errors, and are upon record to this effect, rejecting the Book of Doctrine and Covenants… ” In another 1887 publication, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Whitmer wrote, “If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by His own voice from the heavens, and told me to ’separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints’… In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness.”
Godzilla mentioned: More material available here: http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm
They never saw the plates with PHYSICAL eyes urroner - but 'spiritual' eyes. So much for an authentic observation.
Have you never read the testimony of the eight, which describes purely physical handling, hefting, and visual examination of the writings on the plates?
Godzilla covered this, too: As for the other eight witnesses do not fare much better. All were related to smith or each other. 3 of the 8 left the church or were excommunicated. 2 others died within 8 years BEFORE their relatives (among the 8) were either excommunciated or left the church. The remaining three were smiths. How credible - Not credible at all - by the words and actions of the so-called witnesses themselves.
I've posted similar things years ago, as did Colorcountry (ex-Mormon) here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2023444/posts
Specific details of the three witnesses:
False Witness #1: Martin Harris:
* Was known for being very unstable religiously. Over his whole life he changed his affiliation over 13 times.
* Martin Harris was first a Quaker, then a Universalist, next a Restorationist, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon.(Mormonism Unveiled, E. D. Howe, 1834, pp. 260-261)
* After Martin Harris’ excommunication in 1837, he changed his religion eight more times, going from the Shakers to one Mormon splinter group to the next, and back to the main group in 1842.(Improvement Era, March 1969, p. 63 and Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 164, Brigham Young)
* In 1846, (after his excommunication in 1837) Martin Harris was preaching among the Saints in England for the Apostate James J. Strang. (Church Chronology, Andrew Jensen, 1899, p. 31; Millennial Star, vol. 8, Nov. 15, 1846, pp. 124-128.)
* He signed his name to a statement: "Testimony of three witnesses: We Cheerfully certify...The Lord has made it known to me that David Witmer is the man. David was then called forward, and Joseph and his counselors laid hands upon him, and ordained him to his station, to succeed him...He will be prophet, seer, Revelator and Translator before God." Signed Martin Harris, Leonard Rich, Calvin Beebe. Of course this never came to pass as Brigham young became Joseph Smith's successor.
* The Mormons stated of Martin Harris and a few other men within the pages of the church's official newspaper at the time, "a lying deceptive spirit attend them...they are of their father, the devil...The very countenance of Harris will show to every spiritual-minded person who sees him, that the wrath of God is upon him." Latter-Day Saint's, Millennial Star, Vol 8 pp124-128.
* Phineas Young wrote to his older brother Brigham Young on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio: "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the Book of Mormon" (Martin Harris - Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52)
* Martin Harris testified that his testimony for Shakerism was greater than it was for Mormonism. The Shaker's "Sacred Roll and Book" was also delivered by an angel. (Case Against Mormonism, Tanner, Vol. 2, pp. 50-58; Martin Harris-Witness & Benefactor, BYU 1955 Thesis, Wayne C. Gunnell, p.52.)
* In the Elder's Journal for August, 1838, Joseph Smith denounces Martin Harris as "so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a gentleman to make. The Church exerted some restraint on him, but now he has given loose to all kinds of abominations, lying, cheating, swindling, and all kinds of debauchery."(Gleanings by the Way, J. A. Clark, pp. 256-257)
* Like David Whitmer, Martin Harris later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates with "the eyes of faith and not with the natural eyes". This we believe is the truth but it should eliminate him automatically as a witness none the less. This of course proves Mormonism is a fraud and that the Nephi Plates never existed and no one actually saw them. (The Braden & Kelly Debate, p. 173)
False Witness #2: David Whitmer:
* David Whitmer said in 1887: "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints...'" Address to all believers in Christ, p. 27, 1887
* David Whitmer belonged to at least three Mormon splinter groups at different times, but he died still rejecting the LDS Church and its priesthood.
* Like Martin Harris, David Whitmer later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates "by the eye of faith" handled by an angel.(Palmyra Reflector, March 19, 1831)
* David Whitmer changed his story about seeing the plates and later told of finding them lying in a field and later still, told Orson Pratt that they were on a table with all sorts of brass plates, gold plates, the Sword of Laban, the ‘Director' and the Urim and Thumim. (Millennial Star, vol. XL, pp. 771-772)
* During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, David Whitmer pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess (as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into ‘trances.'(Biographical Sketches, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213)
* It was the start of the finish for him. It ended in 1847 in his declaration to Oliver that he (Whitmer) was to be the Prophet of the New Church of Christ and Oliver a counsellor.(Letter to Oliver Cowdery, by David Whitmer, Sept. 8, 1847, printed in the "Ensign of Liberty," 5/1848, p. 93; also see ‘Ensign of Liberty,' 8/1849, pp. 101-104)
* In the meantime, he was excommunicated and roughly put out. His and Oliver's families were, in fact, driven into the streets and robbed by the Mormons while Whitmer and Cowdery were away trying to arrange a place to flee.(John Whitmer's History of the Church, Modern Microfilm, SLC, p. 22)
* Cursed by leaders such as Sidney Rigdon, David Whitmer was denounced by the Prophet Joseph Smith as a "dumb beast to ride" and "an ass to bray out cursings instead of blessings." (History of the Church, vol. 3, p 228)
False Witness #3: Oliver Cowdery:
* Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated from the Mormon church and joined the Methodist church.
* In 1841 the Mormons published a poem which stated "Or Book of Mormon not his word, because denied by Oliver". Seasons and Times, Vol 2, p.482
* The Mormon church accused Oliver Cowdery of Adultery and claimed he had joined "a gang of counterfeiters, thieves, liars, and blacklegs."
* Oliver Cowdery was the Church's second Elder, often called the "Second President." The early day companion of Joseph Smith, he was scribe for the Book of Mormon, present at the "Restoration of the Priesthood,' and as close to the real truth as any man.(Pearl of Great Price, JS 2:72-76)
* However, in 1838 in Kirtland, Oliver confronted Joseph Smith with the charge of adultery with Fanny Alger, and with lying and teaching false doctrines.(Private Letter to Brother, Warren Cowdery, by Oliver Cowdery, Jan. 21, 1838)
* Joseph Smith denied this and charged Cowdery with being a liar.(History of the Church, vol. 3 pp. 16-18 and Elder's Journal, Joseph Smith, July 1838.)
* Church records now show Miss Alger was Smith's first "spiritual wife." Oliver was telling the truth!(Historical Record, 1886, vol. 5, p. 233)
* Cowdery was excommunicated for this and other "crimes."(History of the Church, vol. 3, pp. 16-18) Later, as a Methodist, he denied the Book of Mormon (Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 482 and Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, p 56 and "Oliver Cowdery-The Man Outstanding," Joseph Greehalgh, 1965, p. 28)
* Cowdery publicly confessed his sorrow and shame for his connection with Mormonism.(The True Origin of The Book of Mormon, Charles Shook, 1914, pp. 58-59)
* While the Mormon church claims he rejoined them in the fall of 1848, (Historical Record, 1886, vol. 5, p. 201) they also accused him later that year, with trying to "raise up the Kingdom again" with the Apostate, William E. McLellin.(The Mormon frontier, Diary of Hosea Stout, vol. 2, p. 336)
* Oliver Cowdery was publicly charged by Joseph Smith and leading Mormons with stealing, lying, perjury, counterfeiting, adultery, and being the leader of a gang of "scoundrels of the deepest degree!"(Senate Document 189, Feb. 15, 1841, pp. 6-9 and Comprehensive History of the Church, B. H. Roberts, vol. 1, pp. 438-439)
* Joseph Smith listed Oliver Cowdery as among those, "too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." (History of the Church, vol. 3:232)
* Oliver Cowdery died claiming that the book of Doctrines & Covenants must be discarded. Conclusion:
* All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.
* Modern Mormon "spin doctors" write all kinds of articles claiming that the witnesses may have denied the Mormon church but they never the book of Mormon. Now you know that is a lie.
* Some Mormons will agree that all three witnesses denied the book of Mormon but came back to deny their denial. Imagine the twelve apostles suddenly denying Jesus rose from the dead in public, only to ask people to ignore their denials and accept their testimony once again. This the apostles of Christ never did.
* Only the deluded could possibly believe the outrageous fairytale called Mormonism.
Actually; it's from horse racing.
But...
...she won’t lend you her comb!
El Pollo Feliz
But, but...
...all that stuff is directly against what the Book of MORMON has written in IT!
Really; who is going to actually BELIEVE it?
You see...I’ve led a sheltered life away from the vices of this world...
Oh, no. It’s as evil as the day is long.
It denies the God of the Bible and makes him a man who became God.
You are thinking about later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself upholds Bible teachings as true.
It also demotes him to one of trillions of gods in the mormonic pantheon of gods.
You are thinking of later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself teaches that there is only one God.
It denies His son and makes Him into a creature.
You are thinking of later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself upholds New Testament teachings of and about Christ as true.
It denies the Gospel of Grace and replaces it with works.
You are thinking of later Mormon ideas and reactions to them. The Book of Mormon itself teaches the Gospel of Grace:
"...there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits and mercy and grace of the Holy Messiah..." [2 Nephi 1:73, Restored Covenant Edition]
"...relying wholly upon the merits of Him who is mighty to save." [2 Nephi 13:28, RCE]
"...and took away the guilt of our hearts through the merits of His Son." [Alma 14:32, RCE]
"...relying alone upon the merits of Christ who was the author and finisher of their faith." [Moroni 6:5, RCE]
It claims to “restore the Church”, while doing all those things.
The Book of Mormon does not claim to restore the church. Its purpose is clearly stated: "...to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations." [Mormoni's preface to the Book of Mormon, RCE] In this purpose it has been successful for many people and will continue to be successful for many people.
Pure evil.
Are you sure of that? You might want to be careful about making such a claim: "And now if there be fault, it be the mistake of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ." [Mormoni's preface to the Book of Mormon, RCE]
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Thank you for the reminder.
Since "false" "error" "wrong" "misleading" are not making it personal, I will correct myself by saying that the person's statements about the testimonies of the three and the eight witnesses are false, error, wrong, and misleading. There! Now I am back within the rules of this forum!
Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal." Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Yikes! I am called to the carpet for a second time!
Alright, I don't know where the person got the ideas expressed. All I can safely say is that those ideas are false, misleading, error, and wrong.
Perhaps a safer course for me to follow against the "false, misleading, error, wrong" being unleashed against the holy Book of Mormon would be to respond with actual quotes from the book. That way, I would remove any "making it personal" from the discussion.
I don’t know where the person got the ideas expressed.
___________________________________________________
Maybe AMPU got them from the mormons...
From mormon literature and scripture...
While I cannot speak for AMPU, I am familiar with mormon beliefs through the written evidence in
the book of mormon,
the doctrines and covenants,
the journal of discourses,
the pearl of great price,
the articles of faith (signed by Joey Smith)
the sermons of Joey Smith, Briggy Young and other various mormon leaders..
Christians do not put aside the sermons of early Christian leaders such as Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke just because the words may be inconvenient or difficult to explain..
The complete literature of the Christian faith is contained within the pages of the Bible..
Although some commandments may now be considered old fashioned or disolved through tempoal law, such as abortion or homosexuality or fornication, God has not excused believing Christians from following the tenets of His Word...
However it appears that in mormonism, a leaders commandment or written covenant is only adhered to for a season, or until a new leader announces something different, or until the United States government threatens to confiscate land, belongings, and tax exemptions...
While mormons appear free to pick and choose their obedience to written mormon doctrines and current popular leaders like a religious smorgasbord, Christians do not have that promiscuity of thought..
For Christians, the Bible is our sole guidebook for beliefs and action, and there is spiritual security within the pages of the written Word of our absolute and unchanging God...
Indeed it does!
That's why they want you to pray over IT; not the OTHER crap they've put out!
Your wish is my command, Sire!
Thank you for posting that, I knew I had seen that somewhere.
I will correct myself by saying that the person’s statements about the testimonies of the three and the eight witnesses are false, error, wrong, and misleading.
- - - - -
And you would still be dead wrong.
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