Just a bit south of meso-america...
Posted on 05/27/2010 6:44:33 AM PDT by Colofornian
The discussion on Book of Mormon geography was getting heated. Scholars gathered in Provo, Utah, to discuss their theories about where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place. Some placed the Nephite capital city Zarahemla in Mesoamerica, others in South America. Others argued for a setting in the American heartland.
The president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attended the two-day Book of Mormon convention. Although he found the discussion interesting, he was obviously concerned that people were getting a little too worked up about their geographic theories. He decided to intervene.
The Book of Mormon geography conference was held at Brigham Young Academy on May 23-24, 1903. But the advice President Joseph F. Smith gave at that conference 107 years ago could apply equally to current disputes over Book of Mormon geography.
"President Smith spoke briefly," the Deseret News account summarized, "and expressed the idea that the question of the city (of Zarahemla) was one of interest certainly, but if it could not be located the matter was not of vital importance, and if there were differences of opinion on the question it would not affect the salvation of the people; and he advised against students considering it of such vital importance as the principles of the Gospel."
More recently, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism described how "Church leadership officially and consistently distances itself from issues regarding Book of Mormon geography."
But the lack of an official position hasn't squelched interest. The subject attracts highly trained archaeologists and scholars and informed — and not-so-informed — amateurs and enthusiasts. Books, lectures and even Book of Mormon lands tours abound.
But something is rotten in Zarahemla — wherever it may be.
In the middle of what could be a fun and intellectually exciting pursuit similar to archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann's famous search for the lost city of Troy, there are accusations of disloyalty tantamount to apostasy.
In one corner is the more-established idea of a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. This theory places the events of the book in a limited geographic setting that is about the same size as ancient Israel. The location is in southern Mexico and Guatemala. The person most often associated with this theory is John L. Sorenson, a retired professor of anthropology at BYU, and the author of "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon" and a series of articles on Book of Mormon geography that ran in the Ensign magazine in September and October 1984. A new book, tentatively titled "Mormon's Codex," is in the process of being published.
In the other corner is the challenger, a new theory that places Book of Mormon events in a North American "heartland" setting. Like the Mesoamerican theory, it also is limited in area — but not quite as limited. Its symbolic head is Rod L. Meldrum and, more recently, Bruce H. Porter. Meldrum and Porter are the co-authors of the book "Prophecies and Promises," which promotes the heartland setting.
It wouldn't be hard to predict that some friction might come about from competing theories — that healthy sparring would occur with arguments and counter-arguments. But it has gone beyond that.
The source of the animosity comes from the heartland theory's mantra: "Joseph knew."
Joseph Smith made several statements that can be interpreted to have geographic implications. Proponents of a North American setting see these statements as authoritative and based in revelation. Mesoamerican theorists think that Joseph Smith's ideas about geography expanded over time and included approval of at least some connection to Central America.
To the heartlander, Joseph's knowledge about Book of Mormon locations is seen as proof of his divine calling and a testament to his being the chosen translator/expert of the book. Joseph didn't just know; he knew everything. This position, however, leaves little room for other opinions — or for charity.
"The way I look at Joseph Smith's statements is that he either knew or he didn't know. If he knew, he knew by revelation. And if he didn't know, you've got to ask yourself why he said the things that he said," Porter said. "If he didn't know, was he trying to show off? If he really didn't know, why was he telling people?
"My feeling is that Joseph Smith did not lie," Porter said.
If you don't agree with this line of reasoning, by implication, you think that Joseph lied.
"My authority is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon," Porter said. "Most of your Mesoamerican theorists, their authority is John Sorenson and Matthew Roper. They picked those as their authority at the neglect of Joseph Smith."
Matthew P. Roper, a research scholar at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute Of Religious Scholarship, naturally doesn't like this characterization. "They seem to be trying to elevate a question of lesser importance, Book of Mormon geography, to the level of the doctrines of the church," Roper said. "And even though they give lip service to things like they know the church has not given an official position, they turn around and say, 'All these people are dismissing Joseph Smith.' "
It is somewhat ironic that believing that Joseph did not "know" also supports Joseph as a prophet. The more Joseph's assumptions about Book of Mormon geography prove to be wrong, the greater a testimony that he did not write the book himself. "We assume," Roper said, "that since Joseph Smith was the translator of the Book of Mormon, and that it was translated by the gift and power of God, that he would know everything about the book that an author would. I would submit that the two are not the same thing. I could translate the 'Wars of Caesar' and not know anything about ancient Gaul or the different tribes."
When Meldrum's theories first became popularized through firesides and a DVD he produced, the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR) took notice and responded with gusto.
"The way he said things, they attack that more than they attack the evidence that he presented," Porter said.
Scott Gordon, president of FAIR, would not disagree. "We view this as a steadying-of-the-ark issue. We really don't care where he picks for his theory on where the Book of Mormon can take place," Gordon said. "What we care about that he is implying that the church is not following the teachings of Joseph Smith. Which means the church leadership, the prophet — everything is not following. And we think that is a very, very dangerous position."
"They are getting really worried because they are seeing this is becoming a movement. That's their words," Meldrum said. "They are just saying it's a movement because they are getting a lot of flak from people who are seeing the DVD and the information and thinking, 'You know what, this makes a lot of sense.' "
But supporters also see the heartland theory as an inspired movement that will transform the LDS Church: "(V)ery few people out there fully grasp the magnitude of this movement and the powerful influence that it is having and the sweeping nature of its message," wrote one prominent supporter. "It will sweep the church and most LDS will not even understand what happened until it's past. … Time is our friend."
A movement — about geography?
Historian Ronald O. Barney has seen similar attitudes in some people supporting Mesoamerica. One person described a particular Mesoamerican book as "life-transforming" and that the book "changed the way I think about everything."
Life-transforming?
"People are hanging their faith on evidence of Book of Mormon peoples," Barney said.
"I just think that this way of thinking about our religion is such a waste of time," Barney said, "It almost suggests we don't trust the Holy Ghost. Not only are we worried that he won't reveal to people the truthfulness of the book, but we want to augment it — even if we have to bend and distort — so that there can be no mistake about its truthfulness."
Meldrum said he doesn't hang his testimony on the heartland theory.
"I don't know that this geography is true. I've said that many times and I want to make sure that that's clear. If President Monson was to tomorrow say, 'You know what? I've had a revelation and the Book of Mormon occurred in Indonesia,' you know what? I'm with him." Meldrum said with a laugh.
John L. Sorenson stands by the Mesoamerican theory, but also the Prophet.
"(Geography) wasn't very important to him and he didn't know much about it," Sorenson said. "Joseph knew what he knew — and what he knew was far more important than geography."
Joseph's nephew, President Joseph F. Smith, would probably agree.
He was told that the time had not yet come for the records in that mountain to be revealed.
_________________________________________
Of course not...
That irksome scripture in the Christian Bible must not be translated correctly...
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him Hebrews 4:13
Speechless I am (in my best Yoda voice)
:)
Dates - yes, but nephites/lamanites not in this space time dimension. None of those civilizations were advanced metallurgically, none had horses, none raised old world crops and no middle eastern-hebraic/egyptian related writings have been found. What has been found has been deciphered and guess what - lots of history of other tribes and cultures - except no lamanites/nephite cultures as described in the bom. It is little wonder that both the Smithsonian Inst and the Nat'l Geographic society are on the record as flat out denying that the bom records any factual history of the new world.
I have read the testimony of a Mesoamerican archaeologist who had an encounter with one of the three immortal Nephites mentioned in the Book of Mormon, on a mountain in Mexico that is the real Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
I read that, it was in the copy of the weekly world news were the aliens were shaking hands with Clinton IIRC.
I have read the testimony of a Mesoamerican archaeologist who had an encounter with one of the three immortal Nephites mentioned in the Book of Mormon, on a mountain in Mexico that is the real Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
That is probably because none of them handled the plates, let alone physically saw the plates.
Thank you very much.
Very interesting.
Once you’ve completed these, God accepts your return...no intercessors needed
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Then what was the point of blood sacrifice?
The Book of Mormon describes advanced civilizations, and the ones in Mesoamerica correspond in dating to those described in the Book of Mormon. Nowhere else on the American continents does an archaeological pattern show such similarities.
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Um...NOT EVEN CLOSE. And as a past president of the largest AIA chapter in the country (Archeology Institute of America), I can honestly tell you that your statement would get you laughed out of a MesoAmerican conference.
During a meeting once, with a MesoAmerican archaeologist, a woman brought up Book of Mormon archeology (which is officially considered pseudo-archeology just like Atlantis and Von Daniken) and the archeologist stated he was not familiar with it but there were no Mormon archeologists that were considered peers in the field.
The reporting and interpreting of archaeological investigations lags behind the actual discoveries, and archaeologists are usually trying to find what they want to find, overlooking or ignoring what they do not wish to find.
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Only by perhaps a couple of years at most. Annual conferences and peer review as well as the internet have GREATLY lessened the time. Also, the current (and has been for SEVERAL decades) method is to catalog and record ALL information, in ALL strata, even if it does not pertain to the current excavation topic or period. This is done specifically so that other scholars have access to the findings. IOW, your statement “overlooking or ignoring what they do not wish to find” is not only blatantly false, but has not been the case since at least the 1930’s and casts aspersions on the ENTIRE discipline.
I have read the testimony of a Mesoamerican archaeologist who had an encounter with one of the three immortal Nephites mentioned in the Book of Mormon
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ROFLMAO!!! You have to be joking.
BTW, if the 3 nephites are still around then that kinda throws a wrench into the whole ‘universal apostasy’ thing since they would have always held the ‘priesthood’.
But they don’t sing hymns about them. But I am glad to see that you admit that Smith was a charlatan. Good for you!
Praise to the Man ring a bell?
Or how about ‘hail Brigham young’?
Against this ignorant armchair assessment are the facts concerning the witnesses, carefully studied and compiled in Richard LLoyd Anderson's 1981 book Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses. No one can read this book without noticing that, though many of the witnesses became estranged from the church (and were therefore intensely goaded on to deny their printed testimonies in the Book of Mormon), none of them denied those testimonies, not even on their deathbeds.
These plain facts leave the enemies of the Book of Mormon (most of whom have never actually read it from cover to cover) with nothing but a hope for some mass deception. The word "hefted" in the testimony of the eight witnesses would for most people, especially for those open-minded enough to read Anderson's book, mean that the plates were at least a physical reality!
Those who hate the Book of Mormon should at least read it, if for no other reason than to find exactly what, if anything, is wrong with it. To trust in previous ignorant rants and simply renew them is on the same order as those who rant about the Arizona Immigration law without having read it.
Not only have they not apologized there are many who deny it even happened.
***
Carry on in your crusade who ever posted it set it for those to continue the contempt towards the LDS living today!
Elder Eyring at Mountain Meadows Massacre 150 Year Memorial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqn2i3DLffU&feature=player_embedded#!
This reminds me how today that thoes living today need to also make restitution to those blacks that were mistreated by their white ancestors over 200 years ago.
Now we know those evil LDS need no rememberance for the Haun’s Mill Massacre and any way it was only a few compared to others who too were blindside!
http://www.essortment.com/all/haunsmillmass_rysw.htm
Ha!
Like THAT would work!
YELLing barely fazes them.
They are like big cats, in that they can ignore you better.
CAts will act like they don’t hear you, but GOATS will look right AT you and continue with with a ‘make me stop it’ attitude.
If I have a favorite treat for them, THEN they’ll stop and stampede in your direction; if I have the bug spray bottle, they flee as though a pride of lionesses were after them.
HMmmm...
They remind me of some folks in these threads.
Time to let them out of the barn for a days worth of mischief!
Where oh where oh where oh where oh where oh where oh WHERE;
Is my hairBRUSH!
Just a bit south of meso-america...
Look at THESE folks.
I'll bet they are MAKING MONEY from MORMONism!
The Hill Cumorah Expedition Team, Inc. is now a 501 (c) (3) Corporation
So rich he had a GOLDEN throne - the ENVY of the neighboring tribes.
One day, the neighbors invaded, intent on capturing that throne for themselves. And, since the wealth of the king's tribe had gone into the throne, they had very little left over for defense.
So the king and his subjects dressed as beggers before the warriors arrived, aiming to fool them much like the Gibeonites fooled Joshua.
With the golden throne stored in the attic, the invaders were so upset at not finding it, they stampeded the village's cow herd thru the town. The joustling of the beasts against the kings hut is what caused the great fall that skwooshed him!
S-peach-less?
HMmmm..
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