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The fight over Book of Mormon geography
Mormon Times ^ | May 27, 2010 | Michael DeGroote

Posted on 05/27/2010 6:44:33 AM PDT by Colofornian

The discussion on Book of Mormon geography was getting heated. Scholars gathered in Provo, Utah, to discuss their theories about where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place. Some placed the Nephite capital city Zarahemla in Mesoamerica, others in South America. Others argued for a setting in the American heartland.

The president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attended the two-day Book of Mormon convention. Although he found the discussion interesting, he was obviously concerned that people were getting a little too worked up about their geographic theories. He decided to intervene.

The Book of Mormon geography conference was held at Brigham Young Academy on May 23-24, 1903. But the advice President Joseph F. Smith gave at that conference 107 years ago could apply equally to current disputes over Book of Mormon geography.

"President Smith spoke briefly," the Deseret News account summarized, "and expressed the idea that the question of the city (of Zarahemla) was one of interest certainly, but if it could not be located the matter was not of vital importance, and if there were differences of opinion on the question it would not affect the salvation of the people; and he advised against students considering it of such vital importance as the principles of the Gospel."

More recently, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism described how "Church leadership officially and consistently distances itself from issues regarding Book of Mormon geography."

But the lack of an official position hasn't squelched interest. The subject attracts highly trained archaeologists and scholars and informed — and not-so-informed — amateurs and enthusiasts. Books, lectures and even Book of Mormon lands tours abound.

But something is rotten in Zarahemla — wherever it may be.

In the middle of what could be a fun and intellectually exciting pursuit similar to archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann's famous search for the lost city of Troy, there are accusations of disloyalty tantamount to apostasy.

In one corner is the more-established idea of a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. This theory places the events of the book in a limited geographic setting that is about the same size as ancient Israel. The location is in southern Mexico and Guatemala. The person most often associated with this theory is John L. Sorenson, a retired professor of anthropology at BYU, and the author of "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon" and a series of articles on Book of Mormon geography that ran in the Ensign magazine in September and October 1984. A new book, tentatively titled "Mormon's Codex," is in the process of being published.

In the other corner is the challenger, a new theory that places Book of Mormon events in a North American "heartland" setting. Like the Mesoamerican theory, it also is limited in area — but not quite as limited. Its symbolic head is Rod L. Meldrum and, more recently, Bruce H. Porter. Meldrum and Porter are the co-authors of the book "Prophecies and Promises," which promotes the heartland setting.

It wouldn't be hard to predict that some friction might come about from competing theories — that healthy sparring would occur with arguments and counter-arguments. But it has gone beyond that.

The source of the animosity comes from the heartland theory's mantra: "Joseph knew."

Joseph Smith made several statements that can be interpreted to have geographic implications. Proponents of a North American setting see these statements as authoritative and based in revelation. Mesoamerican theorists think that Joseph Smith's ideas about geography expanded over time and included approval of at least some connection to Central America.

To the heartlander, Joseph's knowledge about Book of Mormon locations is seen as proof of his divine calling and a testament to his being the chosen translator/expert of the book. Joseph didn't just know; he knew everything. This position, however, leaves little room for other opinions — or for charity.

"The way I look at Joseph Smith's statements is that he either knew or he didn't know. If he knew, he knew by revelation. And if he didn't know, you've got to ask yourself why he said the things that he said," Porter said. "If he didn't know, was he trying to show off? If he really didn't know, why was he telling people?

"My feeling is that Joseph Smith did not lie," Porter said.

If you don't agree with this line of reasoning, by implication, you think that Joseph lied.

"My authority is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon," Porter said. "Most of your Mesoamerican theorists, their authority is John Sorenson and Matthew Roper. They picked those as their authority at the neglect of Joseph Smith."

Matthew P. Roper, a research scholar at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute Of Religious Scholarship, naturally doesn't like this characterization. "They seem to be trying to elevate a question of lesser importance, Book of Mormon geography, to the level of the doctrines of the church," Roper said. "And even though they give lip service to things like they know the church has not given an official position, they turn around and say, 'All these people are dismissing Joseph Smith.' "

It is somewhat ironic that believing that Joseph did not "know" also supports Joseph as a prophet. The more Joseph's assumptions about Book of Mormon geography prove to be wrong, the greater a testimony that he did not write the book himself. "We assume," Roper said, "that since Joseph Smith was the translator of the Book of Mormon, and that it was translated by the gift and power of God, that he would know everything about the book that an author would. I would submit that the two are not the same thing. I could translate the 'Wars of Caesar' and not know anything about ancient Gaul or the different tribes."

When Meldrum's theories first became popularized through firesides and a DVD he produced, the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR) took notice and responded with gusto.

"The way he said things, they attack that more than they attack the evidence that he presented," Porter said.

Scott Gordon, president of FAIR, would not disagree. "We view this as a steadying-of-the-ark issue. We really don't care where he picks for his theory on where the Book of Mormon can take place," Gordon said. "What we care about that he is implying that the church is not following the teachings of Joseph Smith. Which means the church leadership, the prophet — everything is not following. And we think that is a very, very dangerous position."

"They are getting really worried because they are seeing this is becoming a movement. That's their words," Meldrum said. "They are just saying it's a movement because they are getting a lot of flak from people who are seeing the DVD and the information and thinking, 'You know what, this makes a lot of sense.' "

But supporters also see the heartland theory as an inspired movement that will transform the LDS Church: "(V)ery few people out there fully grasp the magnitude of this movement and the powerful influence that it is having and the sweeping nature of its message," wrote one prominent supporter. "It will sweep the church and most LDS will not even understand what happened until it's past. … Time is our friend."

A movement — about geography?

Historian Ronald O. Barney has seen similar attitudes in some people supporting Mesoamerica. One person described a particular Mesoamerican book as "life-transforming" and that the book "changed the way I think about everything."

Life-transforming?

"People are hanging their faith on evidence of Book of Mormon peoples," Barney said.

"I just think that this way of thinking about our religion is such a waste of time," Barney said, "It almost suggests we don't trust the Holy Ghost. Not only are we worried that he won't reveal to people the truthfulness of the book, but we want to augment it — even if we have to bend and distort — so that there can be no mistake about its truthfulness."

Meldrum said he doesn't hang his testimony on the heartland theory.

"I don't know that this geography is true. I've said that many times and I want to make sure that that's clear. If President Monson was to tomorrow say, 'You know what? I've had a revelation and the Book of Mormon occurred in Indonesia,' you know what? I'm with him." Meldrum said with a laugh.

John L. Sorenson stands by the Mesoamerican theory, but also the Prophet.

"(Geography) wasn't very important to him and he didn't know much about it," Sorenson said. "Joseph knew what he knew — and what he knew was far more important than geography."

Joseph's nephew, President Joseph F. Smith, would probably agree.


TOPICS: History; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: beck; bookofmormon; geography; glennbeck; inman; lds; mormon
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To: magritte; Tennessee Nana
...they obviously think that they are doing a good thing and trying to bring all “non-Mormons” into the fold so the dead will have a shot at Heaven.

Now...given that 99% of people's birth and death date and full names aren't available before a certain time period...in other words: Banner headline: EVEN WERE THE MORMONS TO BE 'RIGHT,' MORMON GENEALOGY WOULD NOT SAVE HARDLY ANYONE BEFORE A CERTAIN TIME FRAME!!!
...I mean what? Is the Lds "prophet" going to find genealogical gold plates buried in the ground for those folks born before the 1500s or 1600s and all the poor folk before well after that?
...Wanna 'xplain, Magritte, just how are over 5,500 years or more worth of historic people going to be brought "into the fold" even if the Mormons would right???? (Do you advocate that the Lds "prophet" assign a whole new "money looking" division of Mormons to go around the world and dig up genealogical treasures maintained on gold plates?)

The Mormon water-boarding necrophiliac contest is frankly more cumbersome and torturous upon the...
....60,000 Lds volunteers who show up in the Wasatch Mountain granite vault all throughout 2010 to enter names for online consumption...
...the photogs who capture church records from centuries past...
...and the researchers who dig & dig & dig & obsess with the dead -- versus those still living...

181 posted on 05/27/2010 12:47:39 PM PDT by Colofornian (As the LDS once were, the fLDS are; as the fLDS are, the LDS will become.)
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To: donozark

And much ‘propaganda’ too.


182 posted on 05/27/2010 12:48:55 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: donozark; count-your-change; magritte
If there’s no Land of Oz maybe there’s no Dorothy, Tin Man, etc. As Jesus said, ‘He that is faithful in least is faithful in much’. [count-your-change, post #58]

Peepers were “money-diggers.” Looked for buried treasure (presumably Spaniards) and old mines. Smith and others dug in several areas in NE Penn. [donozark]

Peepers, and kipers, and polygs, oh my!

183 posted on 05/27/2010 12:52:29 PM PDT by Colofornian (As the LDS once were, the fLDS are; as the fLDS are, the LDS will become.)
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To: Colofornian

As I said, I find Baptism for the Dead quaint because of its sincerity, although from a NT perspective, mostly non-Biblical...being non-Christian myself, however, I find ALL baptism to be unnecessary, since I accept the Torah’s teaching that Man enters the world free of sin and we sin because of our imperfections...magritte


184 posted on 05/27/2010 12:58:42 PM PDT by magritte ("There are moments, Jeeves, when one asks oneself "Do trousers matter?")
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To: donozark
There is a monument near Hickory Grove/Harmony that commemorates the baptism of J. Smith and Oliver Cowdry in the Susquehanna River.

Since you have asked several times about this, I'm sure the following is more than sufficient to answer your questions:

Priesthood: “The Power of Godliness”

D&C 84:33-44; 107; 121:34-36
By Breck England

The Doctrine and Covenants is an invitation to all people everywhere to come unto Christ. In the revelations of this book “one hears the tender but firm voice of the Lord Jesus Christ,” inviting all to come unto Him “preparatory to his second coming.” [1]

In the Sacred Grove, Jesus Christ informed the young Joseph Smith that the power of godliness had been taken from the earth. Joseph was told that the religious organizations of the day had “a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” (JS-H 1:19).

The “power of godliness” was restored to the earth in 1829, when Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery received the priesthood by the hands of heavenly messengers. John the Baptist, the last legitimate holder of the Aaronic, or lesser priesthood, conferred it on Joseph and Oliver on May 15, 1829, on the banks of the Susquehannah River in upper Pennsylvania. Later, the two men received the Melchizedek, or higher priesthood by ordination from Peter, James, and John, the last legitimate holders of the keys of that priesthood. In this way, the “power of godliness,” or the power to come back into the presence of God, was restored to the earth.

Why were the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods restored?

The purpose of the Aaronic Priesthood, named for Aaron, the brother of Moses, is to open to us the gates of the celestial kingdom of God. Encompassed in the Aaronic priesthood is the authority to baptize and to administer the sacrament, which is a renewal of the baptismal covenant.

The purpose of the Melchizedek Priesthood, named for Melchizedek, the great high priest who conferred the priesthood on Abraham, is to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost and to open to us the gates of exaltation, or the highest heaven of the celestial kingdom of God. The celestial kingdom contains three heavens or degrees; “and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; and if he does not, he cannot obtain it” (D&C 131:1-3).  Only by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood can the ordinance of eternal marriage be performed.

Thus, the task of these two priesthoods is to prepare people for the presence of our Father in Heaven. His authorized servants are sent into the world to do bring our Father’s children to the temple, so that they may be completely qualified for eternal life and exaltation. No work is more significant than this — it is truly “a marvelous work and a wonder.”

Adam received both the Melchizedek and Aaronic Priesthoods, which were passed from father to son through Enoch and Noah to Melchizedek, and from Melchizedek to Abraham to Moses. The Lord wanted to confer both priesthoods on the children of Israel at the time of Moses, but because of their hardened hearts, they declined to receive the blessings and responsibilities of the Melchizedek Priesthood. Nevertheless, the Lord in his mercy gave them the Aaronic Priesthood so they could continue to qualify themselves for his kingdom and prepare for even greater blessings (see D&C 84:6-28).

The priesthood ceased among men with the growth of pride, corruption, and sloth in the Church after the time of Christ. Thus, to re-open the gates of salvation and exaltation, the priesthood had to be restored. Duly authorized administrators were sent from the presence of God to confer the priesthood once again on living men. God’s promise is that it will “never be taken again from the earth” (D&C 13:1).

What blessings does the Lord promise as part of the oath and covenant of the priesthood?

In D&C 84, the Lord makes an oath to those who receive the priesthood and magnify their callings, that He will grant them these blessings if they fulfill certain conditions:

  • They are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies (v. 33).

Those faithful to the priesthood will be resurrected first and with glorified, sanctified bodies. “These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection” (D&C 76:64).

  • They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron (v. 34).

As sons of Moses, they are rightful administrators in the Melchizedek Priesthood and are heirs of the privileges of that great prophet — to commune with God, to receive revelation in their callings, and to act in the higher ordinances under God’s direction.

As sons of Aaron, they are rightful administrators in the Aaronic Priesthood, and partake of the privileges of Aaron — to teach the gospel and to administer the saving ordinances of baptism and the sacrament.

  • They become the seed of Abraham (v. 34).

As the seed of Abraham, they are entitled to the blessing of Abraham: “Exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds [posterity] for ever and ever” (D&C 132:19) — in other words, the joy of the eternal family belongs to them.

  • They become the church and kingdom, and the elect of God (v. 34).

To be elect is to be an heir, as Isaiah prophesied: “I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it” (Isa. 65:9).  The faithful priesthood holder and his family are those seeds of Jacob who will inherit the “mountains” of the Lord — the promised land, kingdom, and temples of the Lord.

  • They receive Jesus Christ (v. 35).

To receive the priesthood is to receive Jesus Christ; and to receive Him is to be “encircled about eternally in the arms of his love,” as Nephi taught (2 Ne. 1:15). Those who receive Christ are ensured of their exaltation: “If ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also” (D&C 132:23). Furthermore, we are commanded in 3 Nephi 27:27 to be like Christ (“even as I am”); to be like Him requires holding the priesthood, for His priesthood is His power. All men who seek to be like Jesus Christ must be faithful in their priesthood callings.

  • They receive the Father and all that the Father hath (v. 36-38).

Of course, this is the greatest blessing God can bestow, for He cannot bestow more than all that He has. “The priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek,” are the legitimate heirs of God’s kingdom. “They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things — they are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory” (D&C 76:55-57).

What do priesthood holders promise as part of the oath and covenant of the priesthood?

These supernal blessings are promised to those who, quite simply, “are faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods ... and the magnifying their calling” (D&C 84:33).  To obtain the priesthood, one must qualify. This requires keeping the commandments of God. Additionally, the faithful priesthood holder “magnifies” his calling. In an inspired address, President Gordon B. Hinckley has explained what it means to magnify one’s priesthood calling:

“All of you, of course, are familiar with binoculars. When you put the lenses to your eyes and focus them, you magnify and in effect bring closer all within your field of vision. But if you turn them around and look through the other end, you diminish and make more distant that which you see.

“So it is with our actions as holders of the priesthood. When we live up to our high and holy calling, when we show love for God through service to fellowmen, when we use our strength and talents to build faith and spread truth, we magnify our priesthood. When, on the other hand, we live lives of selfishness, when we indulge in sin, when we set our sights only on the things of the world rather than on the things of God, we diminish our priesthood.

“How do we do this? How do we enlarge the power of the priesthood with which we have been endowed? We do it when we teach true and sound doctrine. The Lord has said: ‘And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom’ (D&C 88:77).

“We diminish that calling, we shrink that mission when we spend our time speculating about or advocating that which is not set forth in the scripture or that which is not espoused by the prophet of the Lord. Rather, ours is the responsibility, as set forth in revelation, ’to bind up the law and seal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come; that their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come’ (D&C 88:84–85).

“We magnify our priesthood and enlarge our calling when we serve with diligence and enthusiasm in those responsibilities to which we are called by proper authority. I emphasize the words, ‘diligence’ and ‘enthusiasm.’ This work has not reached its present stature through indifference on the part of those who have labored in its behalf. The Lord needs men, both young and old, who will carry the banners of His kingdom with positive strength and determined purpose. [2]

In summary, President Hinckley has taught that to magnify our calling in the priesthood is to:

  • Live up to our high and holy calling.
  • Show love to God through service to fellowmen
  • Use our strength and talents to build faith and spread truth
  • Teach true and sound doctrine to one another
  • Serve with diligence and enthusiasm in those responsibilities to which we are called by proper authority
  • By contrast, he has indicated that we diminish our calling in the priesthood by living selfishly, indulging in sin, and setting our sights only on the world. The Lord has said that the power of the priesthood will not continue with such men:

“There are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson — that the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness” (D&C 121:34-36).  The power of godliness cannot be exercised through the use of force or compulsion. This is one of the reasons the priesthood was taken from the earth in ancient times.

Particularly destructive is the mistaken belief among some priesthood holders that their priesthood gives them the right to dictate to others, particularly to their families. There is a great difference between the gentle firmness shown by the Savior in correcting others and the abusive, swaggering behavior of some men. “No man who abuses his wife or children is worthy to hold the priesthood of God,” President Hinckley has said. [3]  

Holders of the priesthood lose the power of godliness if they fail to learn their duties and do them. “Wherefore, now let every man learn his duty, and to act in the office in which he is appointed, in all diligence. He that is slothful shall not be counted worthy to stand, and he that learns not his duty and shows himself not approved shall not be counted worthy to stand” (D&C 107:99-100). Power in the priesthood is magnified by our diligence in attending to priesthood duties.

I wish to bear my testimony to you that the power of godliness has been restored to the earth and it is real. It is the power and authority of the Savior Jesus Christ.


[1] D&C Explanatory Introduction

[2] Gordon B. Hinckley, “Magnify Your Calling,” Ensign, May 1989, 46

[3] Gordon B. Hinckley, “What Are People Asking About Us?” Ensign, November 1998, 72.


185 posted on 05/27/2010 1:02:38 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Illegal-alien immunity builds on sanctuary cities, which shield illegals from federal law)
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To: magritte
being non-Christian myself, however, I find ALL baptism to be unnecessary, since I accept the Torah’s teaching that Man enters the world free of sin and we sin because of our imperfections

Magritte,

If you don't mind me asking.....

According to your beliefs do you believe anyone escapes sin? What is the penalty for sin? Is there anyway to be cleansed from your sin?

186 posted on 05/27/2010 1:04:22 PM PDT by colorcountry ("Showing mercy to the wolves is showing cruelty to the sheep." - Unknown)
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To: magritte

Oh you’re Jewish...

Well I am not upset by your prayers...

Hear O Israel The Lord, He is One...

Thank you...

The mormons have also dead dunked Hilter and many of his jewish victims from the concentration camps in mormonism...

The Israelis have asked repeatedly that the mormons stop doing the dead dunking but ...


187 posted on 05/27/2010 1:06:55 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian
Reminds me of my friend Harley. He waved a plumb bob over maps to find gold, unfortunately it was always inaccessible for one reason or another.
Pleasant enough fellow but nuts. Nuts and poor.
188 posted on 05/27/2010 1:07:44 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Colofornian

I know... ;-)


189 posted on 05/27/2010 1:21:16 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

So did the Mormons dead-dunk Obama’s mother as well?


190 posted on 05/27/2010 1:25:27 PM PDT by donozark (Error encountered:Location is ambiguous....)
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To: count-your-change
Pleasant enough fellow but nuts. Nuts and poor.

How does he keep the squirrels from trying to stuff him into a tree when he goes prospectin'? ;P

191 posted on 05/27/2010 1:33:22 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: svcw
Why this concept is difficult to understand I do not know.

Because we PERSONALize it; doncha know!

--MormonDuque(Why is that so easy to explain?)

192 posted on 05/27/2010 1:39:48 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...))
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To: donozark

Yes.


193 posted on 05/27/2010 1:40:51 PM PDT by svcw (Habakkuk 2:3)
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To: colorcountry
“We don’t use the word ‘apology.’ We used ‘profound regret.’

As I look into MY hat, the translation appears:

We're not SORRY we DID it; we're just sorry it happened.

194 posted on 05/27/2010 1:41:03 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...))
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To: magritte
Anti-Mormonism is discrimination, hostility or prejudice directed at members of the Latter Day Saint movement, particularly The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). The term also applies to the religious persecution of Latter Day Saints and the doctrines, practices and culture of the Latter Day Saint movement.
 
 
WIKI; eh?
 
I wonder what non-involved person typed THAT into it...
 
 
I really HATE it when ANTI things are exposed to the light!


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have done the same!
 
Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
 

 

195 posted on 05/27/2010 1:44:19 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...))
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To: Elsie
We're not SORRY we DID it; we're just sorry it happened.

Or even more precisely. We are sorry it happened, but we are in no way responsible.

Some apology! Sheesh!

196 posted on 05/27/2010 1:47:20 PM PDT by colorcountry ("Showing mercy to the wolves is showing cruelty to the sheep." - Unknown)
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To: colorcountry

It took it more like, “we are sorry that we can no longer deny the event, so we will own up to it but only if we don’t have to use the word apology and blame everyone else”.


197 posted on 05/27/2010 1:50:06 PM PDT by svcw (Habakkuk 2:3)
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To: magritte
...I sometimes pray that you will see the light and return to the Torah...does that offend you? ... magritte

Still tryin' to KEEP them Laws; eh?

No WONDER you do not 'believe' the NT!

198 posted on 05/27/2010 1:50:50 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...))
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To: magritte

Ah!

You just to be here beFORE it happens!

Gotcha...


199 posted on 05/27/2010 1:51:41 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...))
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To: Tennessee Nana

In June 1828, TEN years after he claimed God told him not too, Joey Smith joined aq Chrsitn Chruch in Harmony PA..


 

 
Joseph Smith was a famous Preacher in the Eastern USA. His teaching empire grew to include acquisition of valuable printing assets and intimate dealings with the Missouri courts.
 
 He devoted several years of his early life to exploratory service, finally taking leave to assume his dealings with various Spiritual Beings.
 
As an adjunct to his exploratory work, Mummies and papyrus are purchased from Michael Chandler.  On July 19, 1835 at age 29; Joseph began translating the papyrus. It will be known as the Book of Abraham, generating quite a lot of interest by leading archeological experts.
 
 In 1844, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the authorities in Carthage, Hancock County, Illinois. That same month, Smith passed away during an important civic function held in his honor when the excitable group who had come to visit him pressed too many into the room he was in and his death resulted.
 
 

 


200 posted on 05/27/2010 1:53:27 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...))
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