Posted on 05/25/2010 10:14:07 PM PDT by restornu
From the author of Yecheadquarters Creation
Osas, My story so far....
If you ever wondered what doctrine is right between osas and no-osas, then you have come to the right place. Don't think that because I will be supporting no-osas, that I will have a bias opinion. For I have been on both sides. I was born and raised a baptist. Grew up being taught osas. I never felt bad about it until one day my preacher preached on this subject, and what he said made me realize that this cannot be right. His sermon was based on never losing salvation. But he took it to an area of sin I knew was wrong. He made salvation sound like a ticket to sin.
Now this in itself did not convince me it was wrong. But it planted a seed for me to research it, and I have. A lot of my research involved debating this issue on forums with both osas and no-osas believers. At one point, which was the most confusing point of my life, I was about 50/50 on what to believe. After being frustrated for a while, I decided to go to the source and quit relying so much on doctrine, and what people are saying. Why? Man can take you only so far as truth is concerned. Only God can lead you the rest of the way to find absolute truth.
So I prayed and asked for wisdom about this. My journey was long with many events that were placed there to teach me how and why everything worked out the way that it did. For I can only pray and hope that what I have learned, I will be able to convey to an understanding of most who read this. Why is this so important to me? Because in my journey to learn the wisdom about this, I have also learned that this doctrine alone is destroying the faith of every Christian in such a slow death, most can't even detect it. You might be shocked to read that, because you may be one who believes this doctrine. But don't turn away just yet. For if I cannot convince you to read the rest of this section after reading the first page, then I have failed. So just bare with me while I try and make a point on why I believe this is destroying the Christian faith.
Losing the fear of God.....
I have found that the main thing that keeps me in-line is the fear of God. It keeps what I say and do in check. Problem is, what fear can you have when you cannot lose the ultimate goal as to why anyone would become a Christian?
If I cannot lose salvation:
1) Why should I ask forgiveness? 2) Why should I repent? 3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?
For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put gas in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.
Why obey the commandments?
In the osas belief, I have debated many. I have found that the ones who take it seriously also will tell you that the ten commandments no longer apply. Why? One verse says that we are no longer saved by the law, which is correct. But being saved by the law, and having to obey the law, are two separate subjects. So does the word of God actually make a mention that the ten commandments are no longer in affect as to following them?
jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my Commandments. (Jesus speaking)
The love doctrines....
There are many doctrines that teach the love of Christ only. Such as some that teach there is no hell. Could osas be a modified version of one of these doctrines? Think about it for a second. Step back from what you believe and just look at the facts....
Osas claims:
Osas says you cannot lose salvation. Salvation with no conditions. The love doctrines claim there is no hell. Salvation with no conditions. So both determine no hell.
So what makes these two different but yet the same? The love doctrine applies to all. Saved or unsaved. It asks the question: Why would a loving God send His children to hell, or the lake of fire? Sounds like a tempting doctrine to look into don't it? But that's how the Devil hooks you and reels you in. Temptation. How? If you could live the life you want, and still end up in heaven. Which life would you prefer? The life that says we have to obey all these laws about sin, or the one where you can do anything? The anything life always appeals to the flesh, and we are flesh...... So for me to even say that I would not want this would be a lie.
The osas doctrine does the same thing. But it only applies to one group. Get saved and be secure. Never lose salvation. Do you see how the temptation is there? Sin all you want, your secure, you can never fall out of His hands etc....
Exalting the flesh over the spirit.
A doctrine that makes something more appealing to the flesh is what? A temptation.
Does The word of God appeal to the flesh, or the spirit? The spirit. Because heaven is the goal of every person that accepts Christ.
The Osas doctrine makes salvation more appealing to the flesh. How? If there is no punishment for sin, then what wins in the end? Is it the temptation to sin, or feeling you need to repent of the sin? Christ did not die on the cross for a covenant that is more appealing to our fleshly temptation, then our Godly need to abstain, and repent of them.
The God complex...
But, osas also has it's own judgement rules. If someone in their group should actually deny Christ, and decide to live a sinners life. How do they answer this? Well, he or she was never truly saved if they did this.... Really? At what point do we gain enough wisdom to make the same judgements as God? To be able to say, with authority, that this person was not truly saved, is to have a God complex. There is only one being able to determine this, and it is not us.
So what does that statement, so often used by osas, reveal? That it is by man's own choice to not lose salvation that we become secure in it. And because we think and believe this, what we believe makes us judge others as if we were God ourselves. Because security of salvation is our choice, so the judgement of that security in others becomes our choice as well. Osas is setting the rules for salvation for themselves, so why not set it for others as well.
You were not truly saved because you strayed, rejected and denied Christ? If we were not able to sin upon being saved, then this would be true. But I see it no where written in God's word where it says that we can never reject Christ. Sounds like a God complex to me. Because if you can make that type of judgement on earth, then who will be on the throne when we get to heaven? This type of judgement of another brings God down to the level of man. And therefore God would not be worthy to set upon the throne if man has the same ability to judge as He does. To be able to judge another as if we were Gods, also brings pride. And where pride is, becoming humble is much harder to do.
The reason the LDS tosses aside the trinity and limits the power of their “once a man like us” god is so they too can reach his level. That is a serious selling point, especially to those with serious egos.
An all powerful God, you know, like the REAL ONE, makes that moot.
Second, the only way the LDS can have any modicum of success is to try and deflect from the truth, since their own hand is empty when exposed to the light.
>>> I don’t believe that we lose our free will after we have received Christ. We still have the free will to give up our salvation (imo). No one can take it but we can forfeit it if that becomes our desire.
Free Will... such a horribly misunderstood concept.
If freedom comes from God, then how are the Godless free?
Who has more free will? those who separate themselves from God to gain freedom? or those who give at least some portion of that free will back to God from which it came?
Every sentient being (humans as well as angels) possess free will... but there is NO creature in creation with unlimited free will.... that of course is exclusive to God.
Every choice we make... every situation we are faced with comes with choices. However, those choices are limited. The free will we are given comes with limitations.
If you make the choice to sell your home, and sign your name to the contract, does your free will permit you to repossess the house?
If you really gave your life to God, and swore “not my will but Yours God”.... is it your right to take back what you have given to Him???
Would God call one to salvation whom He knows will at some point in the future destroy every ounce of effort He invested from the point of salvation forward?... only for that effort to become a shining example of failure for the enemy to wave like a banner of victory in God’s face?
How much money would you invest in your new home if you knew that the contract included an at-will repossession clause from the seller?
If you enter into marriage, are you not giving up some of your “free will” in exchange for the trust and loyalty of your spouse? What happens to free will there?
Oh... and before the issue of divorce is argued in response, please read the book of Hosea and consider why that book is in the bible at all.
God does not break His covenants... EVER.
Oh boy has I got a dilly!
Here is another pastor’s take on it. From L. R. Shelton.
The security of the believer in Christ Jesus.
1. The Scripture teaches God is the Author and Finisher of the believer’s faith and salvation.
Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2. As Christ saves a sinner He keeps him saved, and we have nothing to do with keeping ourselves after we are saved.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
2Ti 1:12 .. nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?...
Rom 8:37 ...Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
3.The Holy Spirit seals the believer unto redemption and makes our salvation doubly sure.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13 ...after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Jhn 5:24 ...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4. How are sinners saved?...
1. By the new birth from above
Jhn 3:3 “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again”
2. A new creation
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
3. Not by works of the Law
Gal. 3:10-13
4. But by Faith
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
*****
I have another I will post on what a person must do to LOOSE their salvation.
Thank you. We’re all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. It sounds like English, but I can’t understand a word you’re saying.
I also have an article from the same preacher (L R Shelton) on what a believer must do to be lost.
1. He must take himself out of the Body of Christ into which he has been baptized by the Holy Spirit.
2. He must climb up to heaven and take from God his life which is hid in Christ.
3. He must pluck himself out of the hand of the Lord Jesus.
4. As he has been bought by Christ and no longer owns himself, he would have to sell himself if the original purchaser (God) agreed.
5.He must stop Christ from his Priestly work of intercession by which he is saved to the uttermost.
6.He must not believe when the scripture says the believer has eternal life and shall not fall into condemnation.
7. He must break the seal by which he has been sealed unto the day of redemption.
8. He must become ignorant of the fact that every child of God is..
a. Foreknown, predestinated, called, Justified, and glorified.
b. Perfected forever.
c. Complete in Christ.
d. Viewed by God as perfect in Christ.
9. He must wrest scripture from it’s context and shut his eyes to the general teaching of the word of God.
There is more but that is about all for now.
Would you reword this sentence? I know the words but strung together as you have done make no sense.
In mormon belief, salvation/exaltation is ONLY reached by accepting and fulfilling the terms of the "contract/covenant" via special/secret/sacred "ordinances". This "contract" is available ONLY through LDS Inc.
"Participation in sacred ordinances, both live and vicarious, and fidelity or obedience to the covenants associated with those ordinances are fundamental to the gospel of Jesus Christ and to the process of coming to Him and being perfected in Him.
It is on this fundamental role of ordinances and covenants that I would like to focus. In a very broad sense, everything ordained and established by God’s authority with the intent that it be applied in the lives of His children may be referred to as His ordinances. Consequently, the commandments, statutes, decrees, and requirements of God are properly defined as the ordinances of God. Understood in a somewhat narrower sense, ordinances are also solemn acts or ceremonies that have very specific sacred and holy purposes, significance, and meaning. My reference to ordinances is in this narrower application.
bump for later
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>>> In mormon belief, salvation/exaltation is ONLY reached by accepting and fulfilling the terms of the “contract/covenant” via special/secret/sacred “ordinances”. This “contract” is available ONLY through LDS Inc.
yeah... thats what I hear... but I also hear that salvation and exaltation are not the same... that LDS exaltation is what we understand to be salvation, and that salvation itself in LDS terms refers only to the resurrection of the physical body itself.
However, they will talk about salvation to a non LDS Christian as if it were exaltation, and allow that presumption of “sameness” to exist as long as they are not questioned on it. They will even use salvation/exaltation in the same sentence as if they were synonymous terms.
Not that they do this intentionally, because most of them may not even understand the difference between the two terms according to their own scripture.
Difficult call, however IMHO, it is evident here that when pressed mormon will admit to the different definitions of the term 'salvation'. In their effort to costume themselves as Christians, they take many common Christian terms and redefine them to mask their true doctrine from the uneducated. Were they to walk up and say that salvation was becoming a god/dess, it wouldn't go over very well with the rest of the Christian-exposed community - they'd see that mormonism in the outer limits. Anything to win a convert.
Is that all you have did forget I am self taught...LOL
I have know idea what you just said.
***
May I translate for you friend!:)
I have know no idea what you just said.
Nicely done but I still have no idea what you said.
Being self taught has it advantages forces one into survival mode causing me to sharpens my discernment to think out of the box, to read between the lines or even to understand parables!
This is what I want you to reword because I do not no what you are trying to say.
Presently I am learning how to manuver around Windows 7
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