Posted on 05/25/2010 10:14:07 PM PDT by restornu
From the author of Yecheadquarters Creation
Osas, My story so far....
If you ever wondered what doctrine is right between osas and no-osas, then you have come to the right place. Don't think that because I will be supporting no-osas, that I will have a bias opinion. For I have been on both sides. I was born and raised a baptist. Grew up being taught osas. I never felt bad about it until one day my preacher preached on this subject, and what he said made me realize that this cannot be right. His sermon was based on never losing salvation. But he took it to an area of sin I knew was wrong. He made salvation sound like a ticket to sin.
Now this in itself did not convince me it was wrong. But it planted a seed for me to research it, and I have. A lot of my research involved debating this issue on forums with both osas and no-osas believers. At one point, which was the most confusing point of my life, I was about 50/50 on what to believe. After being frustrated for a while, I decided to go to the source and quit relying so much on doctrine, and what people are saying. Why? Man can take you only so far as truth is concerned. Only God can lead you the rest of the way to find absolute truth.
So I prayed and asked for wisdom about this. My journey was long with many events that were placed there to teach me how and why everything worked out the way that it did. For I can only pray and hope that what I have learned, I will be able to convey to an understanding of most who read this. Why is this so important to me? Because in my journey to learn the wisdom about this, I have also learned that this doctrine alone is destroying the faith of every Christian in such a slow death, most can't even detect it. You might be shocked to read that, because you may be one who believes this doctrine. But don't turn away just yet. For if I cannot convince you to read the rest of this section after reading the first page, then I have failed. So just bare with me while I try and make a point on why I believe this is destroying the Christian faith.
Losing the fear of God.....
I have found that the main thing that keeps me in-line is the fear of God. It keeps what I say and do in check. Problem is, what fear can you have when you cannot lose the ultimate goal as to why anyone would become a Christian?
If I cannot lose salvation:
1) Why should I ask forgiveness? 2) Why should I repent? 3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?
For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put gas in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.
Why obey the commandments?
In the osas belief, I have debated many. I have found that the ones who take it seriously also will tell you that the ten commandments no longer apply. Why? One verse says that we are no longer saved by the law, which is correct. But being saved by the law, and having to obey the law, are two separate subjects. So does the word of God actually make a mention that the ten commandments are no longer in affect as to following them?
jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my Commandments. (Jesus speaking)
The love doctrines....
There are many doctrines that teach the love of Christ only. Such as some that teach there is no hell. Could osas be a modified version of one of these doctrines? Think about it for a second. Step back from what you believe and just look at the facts....
Osas claims:
Osas says you cannot lose salvation. Salvation with no conditions. The love doctrines claim there is no hell. Salvation with no conditions. So both determine no hell.
So what makes these two different but yet the same? The love doctrine applies to all. Saved or unsaved. It asks the question: Why would a loving God send His children to hell, or the lake of fire? Sounds like a tempting doctrine to look into don't it? But that's how the Devil hooks you and reels you in. Temptation. How? If you could live the life you want, and still end up in heaven. Which life would you prefer? The life that says we have to obey all these laws about sin, or the one where you can do anything? The anything life always appeals to the flesh, and we are flesh...... So for me to even say that I would not want this would be a lie.
The osas doctrine does the same thing. But it only applies to one group. Get saved and be secure. Never lose salvation. Do you see how the temptation is there? Sin all you want, your secure, you can never fall out of His hands etc....
Exalting the flesh over the spirit.
A doctrine that makes something more appealing to the flesh is what? A temptation.
Does The word of God appeal to the flesh, or the spirit? The spirit. Because heaven is the goal of every person that accepts Christ.
The Osas doctrine makes salvation more appealing to the flesh. How? If there is no punishment for sin, then what wins in the end? Is it the temptation to sin, or feeling you need to repent of the sin? Christ did not die on the cross for a covenant that is more appealing to our fleshly temptation, then our Godly need to abstain, and repent of them.
The God complex...
But, osas also has it's own judgement rules. If someone in their group should actually deny Christ, and decide to live a sinners life. How do they answer this? Well, he or she was never truly saved if they did this.... Really? At what point do we gain enough wisdom to make the same judgements as God? To be able to say, with authority, that this person was not truly saved, is to have a God complex. There is only one being able to determine this, and it is not us.
So what does that statement, so often used by osas, reveal? That it is by man's own choice to not lose salvation that we become secure in it. And because we think and believe this, what we believe makes us judge others as if we were God ourselves. Because security of salvation is our choice, so the judgement of that security in others becomes our choice as well. Osas is setting the rules for salvation for themselves, so why not set it for others as well.
You were not truly saved because you strayed, rejected and denied Christ? If we were not able to sin upon being saved, then this would be true. But I see it no where written in God's word where it says that we can never reject Christ. Sounds like a God complex to me. Because if you can make that type of judgement on earth, then who will be on the throne when we get to heaven? This type of judgement of another brings God down to the level of man. And therefore God would not be worthy to set upon the throne if man has the same ability to judge as He does. To be able to judge another as if we were Gods, also brings pride. And where pride is, becoming humble is much harder to do.
Losing the fear of God;
I have found that the main thing that keeps me in-line is the fear of God. It keeps what I say and do in check. Problem is, what fear can you have when you cannot lose the ultimate goal as to why anyone would become a Christian?
For if you cannot lose salvation;
then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done?
It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put gas in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it.
Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.
Since you've spent so much time investigating the issue, I'm sure you've come across the correct answers to your questions, but you chose not to believe them...
Those of us who know we have eternal salvation can answer your questions but apparently not to your satisfaction...Most folks in the flesh just can't seem to understand that there is NOTHING they can do to earn or merit God's promised salvation...
Apparently also you seem to think that when you or I sin against God, and we do, that we must fear being kicked out of the family...You don't seem to understand that we don't fear being kicked out, but we have remorse...We have sinned against God...
But then you might ask, why do we feel remorse instead of fear...
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Jesus Christ lives in us, and we in Him...
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
And what of those who backslide or turn away from God??? Did the Prodigal son lose his salvation??? NOPE...
Might we die??? Yes...
Might we get ill??? Yes...
Might God turn our flesh over to Satan for it's (the flesh, not the soul) destruction??? Yes...
Might we fall from Grace??? Yes...
And will God discipline us??? Most certainly...
Will our Father disown us and kick us out of the family; un-adopt us??? Certainly NOT...
Amen.
Good luck using the truth of scripture with restornu, however. Her heart has turned to stone, and she strangles God's word at any point when she feels it threatens the cult.
"But there were False Prophets also among the people, even as there shall be False Teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
2 Peter 2:1
This is the spirit of slavery....., to make “fearing God” something that “keeps you in line.” It is the law. It is the unregenerate man in the only way he knows how to approach God. It is uncertainty and doubt and while it may appear reverent, it is ultimately a fan of hatred toward God, if we actually pay attention to what He truly commands, and not restrict ourselves to surface, external commands.
Your problem, in defining “obedience” to God, is that you set the standard too low. In doing so, you argue with Jesus, who set the bar impossibly high. Do you serve God PERFECTLY in all you do and say? Is your every thought filled with rejoicing over His good providence? Do you trust Him perfectly in all that He ordains. Do you NEVER fail to trust Him, trusting Him to provide for you perfectly according to His will? When His will strips you of some earthly bauble, do you happily give it up, knowing that it is for your good and His glory? Are you so severe with sin that you rip out things as precious to you as your eye, cut them off though they were as essential as your hand? Do you treat your fellow creatures with the same type of respect, never denigrating them, never defrauding them, never doing anything but loving them perfectly, even when they don’t do that to you? THAT (and much more) is the standard.
The ONLY way a man can claim to have lived in a way so as not to sin his way out of relationship with God is to re-define sin to some pathetic set of commands (hello, sir, I think this is called “Pharisaism”). It is an assault on the commands of God no less than an man who spills the blood of another man in anger, or blasphemes.
Your problem is that you don’t see yourself in the awful need of Christ for a total cleansing from the inside out, rather than just dusting you off, forgiving a few external nik-naks and keeping you a “good person.” This is only possible if you have a man-centered view of sin, and thus a man-centered view of God.
There are only two possibilities for men who come face to face with the true demands of God’s holiness. ONE, we can fall at his feet as ruined cosmic rebels, without ANY hope save in the mercy of Christ, and trust in a righteousness that is given freely, maintained freely and to which we cannot add anything, ever, or TWO we can turn away from God. That turning away from the true God may consist in a) building a false God and a false set of standards for righteousness so that we may remain religious and yet keep our sense of self-effort, or b) we may lapse into open rebellion.
The interesting thing is that when Jesus came, he found the religious community a) doing what they always do, which is feeling quite good about their supposed “obedience” and feeling superior to the b) crowd. He did the unthinkable, though, and told the religious moralists they were EVERY BIT as much in rebellion as the irreligious. They had also rejected the true God and manufactured one who was “pleased” with them.
This system of self-righteousness is at the core of your objection to sovereign grace from first to last. You are trying to save yourself. It cannot be done
Does Scripture say that?
YES
Christians don't "follow" the law, they live its precepts, not always in a perfect fashion, and his ever present Grace is there when we fail.
Um, no. No I won't.
I'll keep my underwear on, thank you.
Besides, "Once Naked, Always Naked" spells out O.N.A.N. and that would be kinda gay to do with the author. I'll pass.
Oh, and what is an anit LDS? :-)
Belief in once saved, always saved is irrelevant to one’s salvation.
Salvation is in Christ, not whether you think it can be gained and lost or is permanent. That’s for God to sort out.
It’s a good thing that Mormons don’t have different cults with conflicting beliefs, isn’t it?
Ooops.... LDS, FLDS, AUB, Blackmore/Bountiful Community, Latter Day Church of Christ (Kingston clan), Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days, Centennial Park group, Nielsen / Naylor Group,Independent Mormon fundamentalists
Which one of them is right, I wonder???????
Just tREAD or can they COMMENT as well?
Come ON, guys!
Help our SISTER Restornu here on this thread!!
--MormonDubE(Don't it look like she NEEDS it??)
Oh Guys?? (bone52; Saundra Duffy; urroner; JDW11235; Burkean; Normandy; killermedic;)
Do NOT let this get back to Resty's BISHOP; or HE will FORCE her to take MORMONism 101 all over again!!
It's just TOO BAD that you do NOT know what JS learned to be UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANism - since you used to BE one!
Not necessarily: you could have just decided it wasn't worth it.
Remember Christians of differing denominations.
One of MORMONism’s tactics is to get us FIGHTING amoung ourselves over TRIVIAL things.
They think it gives THEIR veiwpoint legitimacy.
It doesn’t.
Fight the HERESY of MORMONism - not each other!
I think most Christians are OSAS, because that is how they live out their lives, on the other hand ....
Hebrews 6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
That's a good boy...
temple recommend questions
13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:
Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
The Sand Creek Massacre
Your problem is that you don’t see yourself in the awful need of Christ for a total cleansing from the inside out,
mind reading
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
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