Posted on 04/30/2010 8:03:48 AM PDT by Quix
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7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. |
Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, I want to be completely transparent with thee, Praying in this way, I can be at rest, |
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Sorry,I don't consider nor take what you say seriously. It shows me what you think...Besides,what you say is 2000+ years from Christ
However, Stfassisi, even though I understand the RCC's teachings of indulgences, and the philosophical explanations, I do not accept them at all as being from God or Christ and His Apostles.
However,Ken4TA,even though I understand your heretical teachings and explanations,I do not accept them as being from God from someone who was once Catholic and now opposes His Church
One of the most sickening things the devil does is to make an ex Catholic believe he is doing the work of Christ by starting his own ministry opposing the Church while leading the person to think he/she is following Christ.
The only other thing worse is a Catholic Priest,Bishop etc.. who has the audacity to teach or preach against what the Church teaches
Remember what is being said,you walked away from Him in the Eucharist,thus you lost your faith
One of the first prophecies given in Scripture is found at Gen.3:15. The identity of the woman, seed, etc. has occasioned no little speculation and over the years of the unfolding history recorded in the Bible who the woman and seed is has been revealed.
But since the Catholic church gives the prominence to Mary that it does, it sees Mary in Gen.3:15.
By it's own admission the original text does not allow for their interpretation but no matter, Jerome provides the square peg of translation despite the round hole of the original Hebrew.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
“(2) The second point of difference between the Hebrew text and our version concerns the agent who is to inflict the mortal wound on the serpent: our version agrees with the present Vulgate text in reading “she” (ipsa) which refers to the woman, while the Hebrew text reads hu’ (autos, ipse) which refers to the seed of the woman. According to our version, and the Vulgate reading, the woman herself will win the victory; according to the Hebrew text, she will be victorious through her seed. In this sense does the Bull “Ineffabilis” ascribe the victory to Our Blessed Lady. The reading “she” (ipsa) is neither an intentional corruption of the original text, nor is it an accidental error; it is rather an explanatory version expressing explicitly the fact of Our Lady's part in the victory over the serpent, which is contained implicitly in the Hebrew original. The strength of the Christian tradition as to Mary's share in this victory may be inferred from the retention of “she” in St. Jerome's version in spite of his acquaintance with the original text and with the reading “he” (ipse) in the old Latin version.”
Is this something like you were describing?
Nothing I said about the teachings of Catholicism was wrong when I was talking about indulgences and purgatory. It was taken right out of Catholic sources put out by the Pope himself. Just what was "heretical" - look up the real meaning of the term - in what I said about indulgences and purgatory?
One of the most sickening things the devil does is to make an ex Catholic believe he is doing the work of Christ by starting his own ministry opposing the Church while leading the person to think he/she is following Christ.
Hmmm...naw, I think the most sickening thing is saying your following Christ and then not listening to what He said; then making up things that He never said - which I find Catholicism doing over the centuries since it started in a few or more centuries after Christ. What's interesting is that I was led by a RC priest by the name of Fr. Stark who was mentoring me to enter the priesthood; and being told to search the Scriptures for the truth - and if I found something that I had not known before, believe it for it is from God.
BTW, the ministry I got into was not one directed at denouncing the RCC or its members. It was directed at teaching what the Bible has to say on a whole bunch of various topics. And most of those topics do not bring up Catholicism in any way shape or form.
The only other thing worse is a Catholic Priest,Bishop etc.. who has the audacity to teach or preach against what the Church teaches
That seems to happen all the time in various places and times. I once approached the Archbishop's office and presented him with a list of things I found that didn't jive with the Scriptures, and he never rejected any of them, which surprised me and my friend who went with me. Yet, he said that it would be almost impossible to correct the teaching that have been taught for so long. Sad...
Remember what is being said,you walked away from Him in the Eucharist,thus you lost your faith
Now, it was more like I found Him and walked away from the RCC to follow Him. Even Archbishop Roach told me to continue studying and follow where the Holy Spirit was leading me. One thing I don't really like is "assertions" thrown around that deny what the Christ, Jesus had to say about anything. If anyone was to blame it was the leadership of the RCC in making me walk away from them because of false teachings.
"inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius"
Yeah, you're right.
Thanks, I would understand either it or he but not she.
The "problem" that the idea of purgatory addresses is IMHO the effect of sin on the sinner. Sin is not just a matter if getting on God's bad side. It's not just a matter of justice, of what we owe God and one another.
It harms the self, and the harm is a moral harm. That is, it hurts the ability to do good and exacerbates the inability.
Experience indicates that those who have called upon the name of the Lord and are born again are rarely immediately and entirely free of the inclination to sin that they had before their conversion.
So it would SEEM that either what we do, and what kind of moral agents we are after our conversion is negligible or maybe our still tending to sin would indicate that while Gog has restored our relationship with God there is still some cleaning up to be done -- by someone, somehow - or we have the uncircumcised and unclean coming into the city where it was promised they would not/could not come. (Or, as I said earler, they wouldn't LIKE heaven. They'd hate it or would find it painful.)
Now I don't think that I need to change the gender of pronouns to find that kind of thing latent in Scripture.
How's that?
“How’s that?”
I’ll be gentle with you and say nothing.
Exactly, but notice how Jerome translated it: ipsa and ipse in the quote.
It's somewhat amazing that the Catholic Encyclopedia would reveal this to the public! However, thanks to a Pope who told them to tell the truth in it regardless of the consequences! That was in the 1967 version.
I’ll be gentle with you and say nothing.
Why do we have to play games?
The error, or what certainly SEEMS to be an error in Gen 3:15 does not shake my theology of Mary in the LEAST. AND it is a gratuitous, almost irrelevant insertion into a conversation about a kind of relationship between Church doctrine and the Bible.
Its repetition leads me to doubt whether you understood my point about Newton and whether you intend to have a conversation or some sophomoric debate.
I attempted to answer you with candor and without contentiousness. For my pains I get a promise which in its making takes away what it promises and a pseudo aphorism which isn't germane.
What a fear you all must have for your teaching if it must be defended with so much venom -- and so little understanding! How little confidence you must have in the Truth if it must be protected with poisonous darts and heaps of abuse!
I know there are Catholics who are needlessly violent in their discourse. Are there any non-Catholics with the requisite gentleness? How many Protestants are their who trust God enough to come forward in earnestness and candor in an effort to reach some kind of understanding? Are there any?
You intruded yourself into the conversation to tell me that I was wrong about what the Catholic Church teaches. The subject on which you corrected me was what the Church teaches.
Now you are saying that you didn't know that we were talking about what the Church teaches?
Except THEN you say
I do understand completely what the RCC teaches, and do not misunderstand it at all, as some would assert blindly.
I cannot believe this because the first time you said it, as you were busying yourself telling me you understood it better than I, you expressed in incorrectly, and now you treat the most basic aspect of the thing,the distinction between eternal and temporal punishment as something recondite and intricate.
This is just crazy.
I used that as an example of a point. Sorry if you didn’t understand or like it. So be it.
And there, I believe, is the crux of the disagreement regarding the need for "purgatory". This "cleaning up" - when speaking of our remaining days as mortals after our conversion does indeed have very much to do with our Father's discipline, correction and chastisement and it is for our benefit, and those we have within our sphere of influence. It is to make us conformed to the image of Christ so that, through us, Christ is preached. Our way of life should be as a beacon drawing others to Christ and when we are disobedient and cause harm to the cause of Christ, we are dealt with as children of God. We are indwelled and sealed with "that Holy Spirit of promise".
But through it all, we are made righteous, we are sanctified, we HAVE BEEN justified by the grace of God through faith in the atonement of the blood of Christ. When we die - are taken home - we are not under condemnation - not for any part of the sins we have committed - we have passed from death unto life. That is the whole point of GRACE - undeserved mercy, undeserved love, undeserved pardon.
Heaven is indeed a place where there are only those that "are written in the Lamb's Book of Life", and we can only be there because of the finished work of our savior, Jesus Christ. All glory belongs to him!
Heaven is indeed a place where there are only those that "are written in the Lamb's Book of Life", and we can only be there because of the finished work of our savior, Jesus Christ. All glory belongs to him!
Well Said! When God forgives, at our repentance, He also forgets that we have sinned. However, some of what Mad Dawg said is fine...we are to acknowledge our sin to the one we sinned against and make it right then go to God in repentence; for when we sin against our fellow man we sin against God's purpose for us.
I do not disagree.
we HAVE BEEN justified by the grace of God through faith in the atonement of the blood of Christ.
I do not disagree. I note not only the perfect tense("have been") but the verb ("justified"). The question might be why did you not add "sanctified"?
When we die - are taken home - we are not under condemnation -
NO ONE "in purgatory" is under condemnation, any more than anyone is Physical Therapy is sentenced to death. Purgatory is life giving and life enhancing. It is a grace and a kindness, and those in it know they are justified and redeemed, and they rejoice.
not for any part of the sins we have committed - we have passed from death unto life. That is the whole point of GRACE - undeserved mercy, undeserved love, undeserved pardon.
Again, there is no disagreement. I pinged Quix here because he said that he thinks we continue to learn in heaven.
Maybe the scary preaching/teaching about the pangs of Purgatory and the embrace of the juridical model obscures the truth of it. I have run my PT analogy past a number of priests and all of them have kind of cocked their heads but then said they liked it. So maybe it's time to do it again:
I allowed myself to get physically weak through negligence of my bodily condition. I had to hand blend over 300 lbs of sheep feed daily -- and I mean really mix it up -- I was trying to distribute about a cup of medication through more than 100 gallons of feed. I finally abraded a ligament in my shoulder so much that I was debilitated and in quite astonishing pain.
As my neglect of exercise weakened my whole body, the neglect of virtue (obedience to God) weakens the will: we cannot know the good, we do not choose it when we know it, when we choose it our desires get in the way of our doing it - or of refraining from evil.
As my weakness led me to use my shoulder incorrectly in doing hundreds of scooping motions a day, a debilitated will leads to (at least one) sin dominating one's behavior (internal and external). That sin will further damage, but now in particular ways, one's ability to choose and do the good.
I was admitted to medical care. God admits me to His Love.
Once the severe pain was eased (God consoles the sinner) I started therapy.
(Increasingly confident in God's love, the redeemed sinner receives healing gifts -- the beginning of sanctification, which we hold continues after death.)
The place where we did therapy was a happy place. Everyone was nice; there was lots of joking and encouragement; we all were happy about getting better.
(Purgatory is full of hope and expectation and gratitude for salvation.)
Some of the exercises were pleasant. They were generally about getting stronger. Also there were hot and cold wraps and, oh, some kind of device that sucked analgesics and anti-inflammatories into my shoulder.
(In purgatory the harm done by the sin, the suffering of guilt and shame is assuaged, while the will is strengthened to choose and love God more and more.)
Some of the exercises were painful. And once each session, the lovely and pleasant therapist would invite me to lie on a bed (!) and then proceed to, as it seemed, try to tear my arm out of its socket. But I noticed something. The whole time she was doing this, I was doing my stoic macho Zen thing and enduring the pain. So she kept on pulling my arm.But the MINUTE I winced, she eased off.
(Some of the effects of sin can only be healed by, what, loosening and stretching, by detaching the will from its attraction to harmful things, by enabling the will to order one's responses to one's impulses and desires -- and they won't like that. So purgation will have its painful parts. But they are tuned to the capacity of the sinner.
The damage I had done was severe (grave sin) and I had pushed through the pain (deadening and ignoring conscience and remorse). SO I was in therapy for months.
(I HATE the whole 'time' thing about purgatory, though it makes for good jokes. I read one guy in an "approved" -- or at least not condemned -- source who said it might be instantaneous. But it stands to reason (?) that a stronger attraction to sin will be harder to break than a weaker one.)
At the end I was well!The only trace is that my shoulder speaks to me a little louder if I stray from good body mechanics
(I ain't in heaven yet.)
If someone views those in purgatory as "under condemnation" or if the whole "penalty" and "punishment" aspect is seen as not related to the intrinsic (as opposed to forensic or juridical) aspect of vice, then purgatory is an outrageous doctrine.
But if, as some have proposed, we see purgatory as boot camp (you're in the army already, now we're making you a good soldier) for heaven or as the outskirts of the heavenly city (you're IN the city, you're just not downtown yet) then maybe it's clearer that those in purgatory are redeemed. It's really a special case of Quix's saying we continue to learn in heaven. It's a happy place.
Great analogies.
I still don’t buy the purgatory thing.
I will note that a couple of Heavenly visit narratives I’ve read did speak of a kind of temporary vestibule to Heaven. There was very little said about it. FWIW.
Well, you got the vestibule, you got the learning, what’s not to like?
Given only two such mentions . . . and very . . . tersely . . . put, at that . . . not terse in a negative sense, just very briefly stated in passing . . .
I don’t know that one would be wise to build a doctrine on them by a long shot.
When it comes to nonBiblical source stuff, I expect a lot of multiple source confirmations WITH Holy Spirit, in my spirit confirmation before I want to put much weight on it.
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