And there, I believe, is the crux of the disagreement regarding the need for "purgatory". This "cleaning up" - when speaking of our remaining days as mortals after our conversion does indeed have very much to do with our Father's discipline, correction and chastisement and it is for our benefit, and those we have within our sphere of influence. It is to make us conformed to the image of Christ so that, through us, Christ is preached. Our way of life should be as a beacon drawing others to Christ and when we are disobedient and cause harm to the cause of Christ, we are dealt with as children of God. We are indwelled and sealed with "that Holy Spirit of promise".
But through it all, we are made righteous, we are sanctified, we HAVE BEEN justified by the grace of God through faith in the atonement of the blood of Christ. When we die - are taken home - we are not under condemnation - not for any part of the sins we have committed - we have passed from death unto life. That is the whole point of GRACE - undeserved mercy, undeserved love, undeserved pardon.
Heaven is indeed a place where there are only those that "are written in the Lamb's Book of Life", and we can only be there because of the finished work of our savior, Jesus Christ. All glory belongs to him!
Heaven is indeed a place where there are only those that "are written in the Lamb's Book of Life", and we can only be there because of the finished work of our savior, Jesus Christ. All glory belongs to him!
Well Said! When God forgives, at our repentance, He also forgets that we have sinned. However, some of what Mad Dawg said is fine...we are to acknowledge our sin to the one we sinned against and make it right then go to God in repentence; for when we sin against our fellow man we sin against God's purpose for us.
I do not disagree.
we HAVE BEEN justified by the grace of God through faith in the atonement of the blood of Christ.
I do not disagree. I note not only the perfect tense("have been") but the verb ("justified"). The question might be why did you not add "sanctified"?
When we die - are taken home - we are not under condemnation -
NO ONE "in purgatory" is under condemnation, any more than anyone is Physical Therapy is sentenced to death. Purgatory is life giving and life enhancing. It is a grace and a kindness, and those in it know they are justified and redeemed, and they rejoice.
not for any part of the sins we have committed - we have passed from death unto life. That is the whole point of GRACE - undeserved mercy, undeserved love, undeserved pardon.
Again, there is no disagreement. I pinged Quix here because he said that he thinks we continue to learn in heaven.
Maybe the scary preaching/teaching about the pangs of Purgatory and the embrace of the juridical model obscures the truth of it. I have run my PT analogy past a number of priests and all of them have kind of cocked their heads but then said they liked it. So maybe it's time to do it again:
I allowed myself to get physically weak through negligence of my bodily condition. I had to hand blend over 300 lbs of sheep feed daily -- and I mean really mix it up -- I was trying to distribute about a cup of medication through more than 100 gallons of feed. I finally abraded a ligament in my shoulder so much that I was debilitated and in quite astonishing pain.
As my neglect of exercise weakened my whole body, the neglect of virtue (obedience to God) weakens the will: we cannot know the good, we do not choose it when we know it, when we choose it our desires get in the way of our doing it - or of refraining from evil.
As my weakness led me to use my shoulder incorrectly in doing hundreds of scooping motions a day, a debilitated will leads to (at least one) sin dominating one's behavior (internal and external). That sin will further damage, but now in particular ways, one's ability to choose and do the good.
I was admitted to medical care. God admits me to His Love.
Once the severe pain was eased (God consoles the sinner) I started therapy.
(Increasingly confident in God's love, the redeemed sinner receives healing gifts -- the beginning of sanctification, which we hold continues after death.)
The place where we did therapy was a happy place. Everyone was nice; there was lots of joking and encouragement; we all were happy about getting better.
(Purgatory is full of hope and expectation and gratitude for salvation.)
Some of the exercises were pleasant. They were generally about getting stronger. Also there were hot and cold wraps and, oh, some kind of device that sucked analgesics and anti-inflammatories into my shoulder.
(In purgatory the harm done by the sin, the suffering of guilt and shame is assuaged, while the will is strengthened to choose and love God more and more.)
Some of the exercises were painful. And once each session, the lovely and pleasant therapist would invite me to lie on a bed (!) and then proceed to, as it seemed, try to tear my arm out of its socket. But I noticed something. The whole time she was doing this, I was doing my stoic macho Zen thing and enduring the pain. So she kept on pulling my arm.But the MINUTE I winced, she eased off.
(Some of the effects of sin can only be healed by, what, loosening and stretching, by detaching the will from its attraction to harmful things, by enabling the will to order one's responses to one's impulses and desires -- and they won't like that. So purgation will have its painful parts. But they are tuned to the capacity of the sinner.
The damage I had done was severe (grave sin) and I had pushed through the pain (deadening and ignoring conscience and remorse). SO I was in therapy for months.
(I HATE the whole 'time' thing about purgatory, though it makes for good jokes. I read one guy in an "approved" -- or at least not condemned -- source who said it might be instantaneous. But it stands to reason (?) that a stronger attraction to sin will be harder to break than a weaker one.)
At the end I was well!The only trace is that my shoulder speaks to me a little louder if I stray from good body mechanics
(I ain't in heaven yet.)
If someone views those in purgatory as "under condemnation" or if the whole "penalty" and "punishment" aspect is seen as not related to the intrinsic (as opposed to forensic or juridical) aspect of vice, then purgatory is an outrageous doctrine.
But if, as some have proposed, we see purgatory as boot camp (you're in the army already, now we're making you a good soldier) for heaven or as the outskirts of the heavenly city (you're IN the city, you're just not downtown yet) then maybe it's clearer that those in purgatory are redeemed. It's really a special case of Quix's saying we continue to learn in heaven. It's a happy place.