Posted on 04/30/2010 8:03:48 AM PDT by Quix
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7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. |
Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, I want to be completely transparent with thee, Praying in this way, I can be at rest, |
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This is your fault, this line reminds me of something:
"Gilded robes and Prada shoes
cannot bend this heart of mine
and I dare not drown Mr Soros in the warm glow of your wine
You can't buy my love with indulgences
'cause I never was that "kine"
gilded robes and prada shoes cannot replace my old cowhide
The answer is: The lead actor in the episode ended by Serling: "The best laid plans of mice and men and Henry Bemis, the small man in the glasses who wanted nothing but time. Henry Bemis, now just a part of a smashed landscape, just a piece of the rubble, just a fragment of what man has deeded to himself. Mr. Henry Bemis...in the Twilight Zone."
And NO cheatzies. :)
I don't know enough of every belief and practice of some of the other Bible-believing churches to be able to speak for them, but as to the SBC, we engage in NONE of the activities you and RnMom have been discussing, such as the above. The SBC is the largest Baptist denomination in the world and the largest "Protestant" (non-Catholic, Bible-believing) denomination in the U.S. with over 16 million members.
“”Indulgences are not a teaching that came from Jesus or the Apostles.””
You either don’t understand this or you reject it based on a modernist interpretation of Scripture because there is a long history on this with the early Church and ties to historical Judaism as well.
I suggest reading to very good sources on indulgences and reparation-INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA by Pope Paul VI and How Redemption operated by the late FR William Most
Excerpts from INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html
Christians throughout history have always regarded sin not only as a transgression of divine law but also—though not always in a direct and evident way—as contempt for or disregard of the friendship between God and man, (6) just as they have regarded it as a real and unfathomable offense against God and indeed an ungrateful rejection of the love of God shown us through Jesus Christ, who called his disciples friends and not servants. (7)
3. It is therefore necessary for the full remission and—as it is called—reparation of sins not only that friendship with God be reestablished by a sincere conversion of the mind and amends made for the offense against his wisdom and goodness, but also that all the personal as well as social values and those of the universal order itself, which have been diminished or destroyed by sin, be fully reintegrated whether through voluntary reparation which will involve punishment or through acceptance of the punishments established by the just and most holy wisdom of God, from which there will shine forth throughout the world the sanctity and the splendor of his glory. The very existence and the gravity of the punishment enable us to understand the foolishness and malice of sin and its harmful consequences.
That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt(8) is clearly demonstrated by the doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those “who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions (9) are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments. This is also clearly evidenced in the liturgical prayers with which the Christian community admitted to Holy Communion has addressed God since most ancient times: “that we, who are justly subjected to afflictions because of our sins, may be mercifully set free from them for the glory of thy name.(10
And From The late FR Most’s How Redemption operated...
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=160
So Paul VI continues:”For every sin brings with it a disturbance of the universal order, which God arranged in unspeakable wisdom and infinite love.” In other words, God being Holiness itself, loves everything that is right. This was a striking idea when it first broke on the world. For the gods of Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome were not just immoral but amoral - they acted as if there were no morality at all. But Psalm 11:7 told the world: “God is sadiq [morally righteous] and He loves the things that are morally right.” Hence the notion that sin is a debt which the Holiness of God wants paid.
Against this background Paul VI continued (p. 7): “Therefore it is necessary for the full remission and reparation of sins... not only that by a sincere conversion of mind friendship with God be restored, and that the offenses against His wisdom and goodness be expiated, but also that all the goods, both personal and social, which pertain to the universal order itself, which were diminished or destroyed by sin, be fully restored, either through voluntary reparation... or through enduring penalties established by the just and most holy Wisdom of God.”
Since the chief topic of this constitution was that of indulgences, which depend on the “treasury of the Church” Paul VI put the redemption into that background. He said the “treasury of the Church is the infinite and inexhaustible price which the expiations and merits of Christ the Lord has before God....”
Simeon ben Eleazar, a Rabbi writing about 170 A.D. (Tosefta, Kiddushin 1. 14), and claiming to base himself on Rabbi Meir from earlier in the same century, gives us a striking comparison which helps to illustrate the text of Paul VI: “He [meaning “anyone”] has committed a transgression. Woe to him. He has tipped the scale to the side of debt for himself and for the world.”
The image is a two-pan scales. The sinner takes from one pan what he has no right to have. The scale is out of balance. The Holiness of God wants it righted. How do that? If he stole some property, he begins to rebalance by giving it back. If he stole a pleasure, he begins to rebalance by giving up some pleasure of similar weight.
But we kept saying “begins”. For the imbalance from even one mortal sin is infinite, an Infinite Person is offended. So if the Father wanted a full rebalance - He did not have to - the only way to achieve it would be to send a divine Person to become man. That Person could produce an infinite value. Paul VI put the redemption into this framework.
All sinners of all times took an immense weight from the two-pan scales. But Jesus gave up far more than they had stolen, in His terrible passion.
So this is the price of redemption, the rebalancing of the objective order, which the Holiness of God willed. Rom 5:8 said,”God proved His love.” Yes, if someone desires the well-being of another, and starts out to procure it, but then runs into an obstacle - if a small obstacle will stop him, the love is small. If it takes a great obstacle, the love is great. But if that love could overcome even the immense obstacle of the terrible death of Jesus, that love is immense, beyond measure. It was not only the physical pain, but the rejection by those whom He loved that hurt Him. The pain of rejection can be measured by two things: 1) how severe is the form of the rejection; 2) how great is the love for the one who is rejecting. If someone jostles me in a crowd, that is a small thing. But if he wanted to kill me, that is far worse, and if he means to do it in the most hideous way possible - then the rejection is at the peak . And what is His love?: Inasmuch as He is a Divine Person, the love is infinite; in as much as we consider the love of His human will, able to overcome such a measureless obstacle - the love is beyond measure.
Pity that you choose to get it second hand.
No, the pity is really that the Catholic church doesn't follow it in all regards. I don't have the time or will to list all the things your church departed or added from/to the Bible. I've done that before and found out that it doesn't bother them at all. So, you will just have to live with all the arguments presented against your church by those who know the truth of the matter. Sorry about that, but what will be will be.
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Well...re: the New Testament....if you are willing to include the entire, complete, TRUE body of Christ - as ALL who trust in Jesus Christ as savior in that we...I will agree. If you want to imply that the Catholic Church under the Bishop of Rome - or Roman Catholic Church for us less sensitive - is the "we", you already know that is not really a true statement of fact.
I agree, if the "we" is the Catholic church, that first statement at the top is definitely false.
I think you are mistaken.
The error is that you confuse "the temporal penalty of sin" with the punishment.
"Purgatory is the place to purge your soul from the punishments due to the sins you committed while living on earth" - right?
Wrong. Purgatory is the "place" where one pays the temporal penalty of sin.
- a "soul" in Purgatory can't help one's self (soul?) to get out except by fulfilling the time it takes to be punished for the sins once done. The sin is forgiven, but the punishment remains.
The sin is forgiven but the temporal penalty remains.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
§ 1471
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What is an indulgence?"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, ..."
§ 1472 ..., it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the"eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in a state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin." ... These two punishments must not be conceived as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.
Realizing that you are speaking of RCC membership, I take exception to that "billion or more". From many RC's on FR one can see that they condemn a great number of Catholics as CINO. And surveys and polls show us that far more Catholics don't really know what the church teaches than do - and some of the statistics have been mentioned in various threads on FR from time to time.
Actually, the membership numbers put out by the RCC are very deceptive, to say the least. IMHO, the actual numbers of Catholics in the world number no more than 40% of what is claimed - I could be off a few percentage points, but the statistics seem to prove the point I'm making.
An interesting aside to this is that there certainly are a "billion or more" Christians (including Catholics) that know what the Catholic church teaches - even though they may or not be members of the RCC. I'm one of them, as are quite a few non-catholics on FR who were Catholics at one time and left because they knew what the RCC teaches.
Just a little thought for you to ponder on.
Good post.
From many RC's on FR one can see that they condemn a great number of Catholics as CINO.
A few dozen politicians really doesn't change the configuration of a group of over a billion.
And surveys and polls show us that far more Catholics don't really know what the church teaches than do
Which surveys are those?
IMHO, the actual numbers of Catholics in the world number no more than 40% of what is claimed
But that is your OPINION.
I could be off a few percentage points, but the statistics seem to prove the point I'm making.
What statistics are these?
But, even if you are right, that would still leave over 400 million devout Catholics and this would still be by far the largest group of devout Christians in the world.
I'm one of them, as are quite a few non-catholics on FR who were Catholics at one time and left because they knew what the RCC teaches.
People leaving the Church because the truth makes them uncomfortable is nothing new:
65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.
66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.
-- John 6:65-67
It is and has always been from the beginning that men/man mix in untruths with Scriptures. Starting with satan and Eve.
The Bible has mysteries. In an effort to explain mysteries many have attempted to reason our various theories. Just that, a theory.
Dispensations? ... perhaps.
The rapture? ...perhaps.
There are verses that say Jesus ‘coming in the clouds’. etc.
The problem is ... the mind LOVES a mystery. When man comes up with a plausible theory, many will jump on the bandwagon with him.
Let us not add to or take away from Scriptures. Believe what it says. No more, no less. We will not totally understand all the significance of all the verses, in a lifetime.. Trust God, not man. Even if he has a high office. MO
Father God, help us in our day, in Jesus name, amen.
The question is..."Who invented the toilet seat?"
Ohh Mark, how Catholic of you...LOL
Priests married for a long time in the Roman church, it was only when they started willing the church property to their kids it became a "spiritual issue "
Under Pope Urban II priests’ wives sold into slavery, children were abandoned.
PCUSA came from the Reformation. The Anglican Church was originally Calvinist, not Lutheran (witness the WCF). The Congregationalists, the Lutherans, many of the Baptists, and so on have women pastors, ministers, and bishops. All children of the Reformation. As a matter of fact,
I would be grateful if you tell me which denominations (and their numbers) in the United States do not engage in any of the priestess, bishopess, open homosexual, married homosexual etc innovations that only started to intrude into Christianity about a hundred years ago.
All the churches that are still Calvinist or holiness
Those that wandered off into\arminianism
If you want to play the Peter was not married game..we could play the bible does not clearly exclude women for the diaconate or even preaching ...
Calvinist churches (reformation churches)do not ordain women or allow them to teach men ..
Catholic church has lots of rules..but very few really follow them.. they are double minded and every one looks the other way and pretends the church has moral superiority
So where are all the Catholics on Sunday? (attendance is a RULE of the church), How many 2 child families do you see? Half of Catholics see a priest at their first communion and again for the last rites, some may make it for Christmas or Easter ...but basically they are cafeteria catholics picking and choosing the doctrine they like .
This is so sad.. you are forgive.....BUT NOT QUITE....you need to pay for the sins I forgave.. what kind of mercy is that ???
Could you give me a scripture that verifies this doctrine?
People start all kinds of things over the best of motives. Look at the Bolshevik revolution in Russia. The point is to determine who has the power, why they want it, why they have it, and what are they doing with it.
Look at the novelties developed over the last 500 years, with each innovation being stranger than the last. Is there any doubt that Jim Jones (The People's Temple) or David Koresh (Branch Davidians) was a logical and expected development of the thinking that came from the Reformation?
Regarless of what the Reformation was protesting against, a separate topic, the results of the Reformation have given us the LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Heaven's Gate.
If you wish to talk about motives in the Reformation first spend some quality time with the history books.
Already have. We can speak to the motivations of certain individuals, we can speak to the motivations of those that made it succeed, we can speak to the rewards of those in power afterwards, and we can speak to the modern results of the Reformation.
In many cultures like Europe.. it is the tradition to have babies baptized.. the child is then counted as a Catholic .Even if that child never sees the inside of a church again until 1st communion.. and then on their wedding ..maybe a Christmas now and again
I still get things in the mail from "the church" 34 years after I left.. In my area..one that would claim a 85 or 90 % catholic population, they are busy closing and "combining" churches because of a declining attendance..
Ignatius of Antioch wrote the first mention that we know of, but he wrote it as if Catholic Church was in common usage. The Martyrdom of Polycarp speaks of the whole Catholic Church through the world. We use that term advisedly. I would ask you to find an entity called the Roman Catholic Church - a real name of a real entity - such as the Church of England, or ELCA, or PCUSA - or its, for instance, website. The real mention of 'Roman' really comes back to the Diocese of Rome, of which the Bishop of Rome is the leader of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church.
Loosely? He's falling apart...
I have been informed a number of times by the Reformed that Paul contains the theology, and that the Gospels are merely the Chronicles of Christ. Therefore according to these folks, Paul contains what we ought to know, and the Gospels are just nice to know.
Are their home planets anywhere near yours?
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