Give Your All To . . . ? . . . . [A Rel Forum Research thread--Open]

Bible, Vultus Christi, Quix's noggin ^ | 28 APR 2010; 30 APR 2010 | Jesus, Mark Kirby & Quix

[Quix]

GIVE IT ALL TO . . . ? . . . .

--A Research Thread--

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7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. 10 May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today the food we need,[a] 12 and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. 13 And don’t let us yield to temptation,[b] but rescue us from the evil one.[c] --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: Our Father Who is in heaven, hallowed (kept holy) be Your name. 10Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11Give us this day our daily bread. 12And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven ([e]left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have [f]given up resentment against) our debtors. 13And lead (bring) us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14For if you forgive people their trespasses [their [g]reckless and willful sins, [h]leaving them, letting them go, and [i]giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: Our Father in heaven, Reveal who you are. Set the world right; Do what's best— as above, so below. Keep us alive with three square meals. Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others. Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil. You're in charge! You can do anything you want! You're ablaze in beauty! Yes. Yes. Yes. 14-15"In prayer there is a connection between what God does and what you do. You can't get forgiveness from God, for instance, without also forgiving others. If you refuse to do your part, you cut yourself off from God's part. 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. --THE MESSAGE

Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, Mother of Perpetual Help, I turn with confidence to thy maternal Heart, and I renew my total and irrevocable consecration to thee. I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, and all that I have is thine. I give thee my past with its burdens. I give thee this present moment with its anxieties and fears. I give thee my future and all that it holds. There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, no place so secret, or so darkened by sin that thy presence and thy influence are not wholly and ardently desired there. I want to be completely transparent with thee, utterly simple, guileless, and childlike. Thou knowest, O Mother, all my preoccupations, all my intentions, and all those recommended to my prayer. Take them, I beseech thee, to thy Immaculate Heart and, as my Advocate, my all-powerful intercessor, and my Mediatrix, present them to thy Son. Seeing them presented by thee and held in thy maternal Heart, there is nothing that He will not do to give to each intention the one response worthy of the infinite mercy and love of His Sacred Heart. Praying in this way, I can be at rest, for thou art my Mother, and all that I entrust to thee will be, I am sure, received, and considered, and cared for with a Mother's love. Amen.

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[Forest Keeper]

I THINK I was getting called to account for the notion of Mary as dispenser of Grace because she is the, ahem, dispenser of Jesus [see note below], with a suggestion or, as Art Carney would say, incineration that that must make Mary greater than IHS. So, therefore the question about the ranking of containers and things contained.

Yes, I have been trying to follow the conversation. It looks like the main difference is whether there should/could/would be any entity/conduit in between Christ and the ultimate recipient when it comes to grace. Further, if we even supposed Mary as such an entity/conduit then how is it exactly that she administers that role, i.e. what powers, rights of refusal, or other options would it be said that she has when it comes to the dispensing? It seems clear that the more claimed the less we like it. :)

[Outership]

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

[boatbums]

Thank you. One of my all time favorite Psalm!

[Mad Dawg]

Was it you and I who were having the conversation about Mount Sinai?

The closest thing to a theological statement about this that I've heard is that Mary's will is united to Christ's -- as we pray ours will be.

Digression: Augustine - letter to Proba - when we pray, as instructed, "They will be done," we are asserting the submission or making to offering of that submission of our will to His. Makes sense to me.

This, not the slander that was aimed at me, was included in what I meant when I said Mary was eschatological: In her is "now" fulfilled, we hold, what is promised to all the blessed in the "future." I do not minimize or explain away the Assumption. I celebrate it in ALL that it implies, including the union perfected perfected by Love between Redeemer and Redeemed. And we hope that our will also will be united with Christ's.

So HOW this works, I have no idea. But if it is thought of as some kind of clash ...

Mary to Jesus: Son, I have something I want to ask you.
Jesus: Stop! I know what you're going to say ...

that just has to be ridiculous. The problem, or part of it, is wondering how two distinct wills could be so united in Love that they are in perfect concord. I can no more imagine it than I can imagine what it would be like to see Jesus in Heaven. What's a "spiritual body" anyway?

Short answer: I have no idea.

BUT there is the kind of concreteness, this sense that things are not MERELY what they seem. To be the God-bearer, in our concrete and creation-affirming way off doing business, can't be JUST a matter of being kind of a surrogate mother as the gentiles are trying to make regular motherhood. We have kids. They are at once one with us and so different as to be a constant wonder. And that's with just regular kids. They (with Grace) make us more charitable toward the whole world. That's not an insignificant change.

So I think one could say there's a sort of extrapolation.

[metmom]

Edersheim also says that "loosing" and "binding" refers to things that are prohibited and permitted. In Rabbinic law the terms could refer to pardoning and forgiving but this is not the case with Christ, and forgiveness of sins is not to be considered the meaning

Acts 10:9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.

19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."

21Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?"

22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

[MarkBsnr]

I have friends in Canada who get as good a college education for 1/4 of the cost

I got a first rate chemical engineering undergrad for 1/4 that of a second rate chemical engineering undergrad in two adjoining US states (back in 1984).

[MarkBsnr]

You are very welcome.

The Church believes, and has always believed, that the quotations of Christ are worth immeasureably more than the writings of the Chronicler. The difference between the Creator and the created.

[MarkBsnr]

. . . prancing about with great ritualized !!!!TRADITIONAL!!!! pomp and circumstance whenever an audience is big enough or the cameras are rolling?

Prancing? Cameras rolling? Quix, I've been to a number of Pentecostal events, and also watched Pentecostal televangelists emoting on their stage. They put the soap opera actors to shame by comparison.

I'd like to you point me to a youtube or other video in which JPII or BXVI has ever demonstrated other than humility.

[MarkBsnr]

From the Heidelberg Catechism...

Found a new source of nonChristian preaching? How rude. Now I will feel obligated to go through this as well and see how if there is any more Christ in the Heidelberg Catechism than there is in the Westminster Confession of Faith. I am willing to take a pool on it in 5% increments either way.

[MarkBsnr]

Those outside do not understand the reformation had a core belief that motivated the move from Rome.

For the German princes, it was the chance at power. For Luther, it was wealth and privilege. For Calvin, it was power and authority. For Zwingli, well, he was mad, and it allowed him to indulge in his soldier fantasies.

The motivation is well understood.

[Ken4TA]

FYI...

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect." - Matt 24:24

In this verse the words "signs" is translated "miracles" more often than "signs". Even the word "wonders" is sometimes translated as "miracles".

Now, if the ones mention in that verse are not as powerful as Satan, then Satan can work "miracles" as well, if not better! After all, Satan is the great "deceiver"!!!

[Ken4TA]

I picked up a used booklet at the used book table . . . on the QUEEN OF HEAVEN—all manifestations. The Roman Catholic et al variety was only a rather small part of the booklet.

I’m convinced it’s a bigger spiritual warfare issue than I’d ever realized before.

I realized this warfare against the Scriptures in the Catholic church right before I made haste to get out of it.

You're right on! It is a gigantic spiritual war that we have to face head on! God's truth will triumph! But we have to put on the armour of God and take up the spirit of truth in this war.

[MarkBsnr]

I realized this warfare against the Scriptures in the Catholic church right before I made haste to get out of it.

Interesting. We wrote it; we chose it; we translated it; we bring to the heretic, the apostate and the heathen.

Pity that you choose to get it second hand.

[metmom]

For the German princes, it was the chance at power. For Luther, it was wealth and privilege. For Calvin, it was power and authority. For Zwingli, well, he was mad, and it allowed him to indulge in his soldier fantasies.

The motivation is well understood.

Yup, Catholic Church history verifies that it would understand very well.

[MarkBsnr]

Political history verifies that the Reformation was primarily a geopolitical power play.

[metmom]

Interesting. We wrote it; we chose it; we translated it; we bring to the heretic, the apostate and the heathen.

What flawless reasoning - The Catholic church decrees that all the writers of the NT are Catholics, therefore the Catholic Church wrote the NT. Circular reasoning par excellence.

FWIW, the Catholic Church did NOT write the OT or choose it. That was written by Jews and recognized as Scripture long before the Catholic Church came on the scene, so the RCC taking credit for *writing* the Bible is disingenuous and dishonest.

[MarkBsnr]

Nicely disingenous.

The NT was written in Greek by whom?

[stfassisi]

If you are a Christian the OT is only useful if it’s read in the “type”(typology) and fulfillment of Christ in the NT-that NT canon was decided by the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit through Saints like Saint Athansisus and Jerome etc...Reading the OT in the eyes of the Jews denies the Divinity of Christ,like at the coucil of Jamnia

[Quix]

Interesting.
We wrote it;
we chose it;
we translated it;
we bring
to the heretic, the apostate and the heathen.
.
Ahhhhhhh yes
the self-purported
TOP FLIGHT
ASSESSOR, DISCERNER,
AND
AWARDER
OF THE
GILDED WHITE HANKY
CROWN OF PARAGON HUMILITY
HAS SPOKEN!
[all may bow low, now
on the count of 3
. . .
a one anna 2 anna 3
hold the 90 degree
half-kowtow bow now
for the ful 12 count
a one anna 2 anna 3 anna 4 . . .

For those chosen by lot
to be representative riff raff
in the annual visit of the unwashed
to his pristine glorious chambers,
The following will be led
after the fashion of a
Gregorian chant just before your exit
about 7 seconds after your entrance:
Begin now the salutation on the count of 3
a one anna 2 anna 3--IN UNISON NOW]: .
"OH MAGNIFICENTLY SPLENDED HUMBLE ONE!
My your halo enshrined pronouncements
define humility for God and all His creation
(subject only to Mary, of course!)
May the brightness of your wisdom
leave the august sages of the ages agape and aghast
at the brilliance of your gloriously wonderous
assessment criteria
for clearly oh Masterful Doctor of Humility
We must all submit to your assessment in
Eternal gratitude that we were
worthy to be scrutinized by your exacting standards.
.
We know that none of us ever have
and none of us ever can
match the sanctity
the purity
and the Heavenly Magnificence of your
gloriously halo'd humility.
.
However, it gives us sniveling snots
knaves, sinners, reprobates
and even us groveling Protty Christians
such resplendent comfort and satisfaction
just to know that
once upon a time
The GREAT HUMILITY ASSESSOR
passed this way
and condescended
to weary his sainted eyes
to besmirch his holy gaze
by glancing in our
lowly state of extreme humanness.
.
May Mummy Mary's
anointed white hanky
be quickly applied
to your troubled eyes
and quickly heal them
for the horrific hazard
of a couple of seconds' glance
in our direction
as your motorcade sped by."

"Sincerely,
your everlastingly
slavishly loyal
serfs and slaves."
.
[You may now rise
from your
floor face
before the throne
of the
SUPREME PAPAL ANNUNCIO
OF THE DEPARTMENT OF PARAGON HUMILITY
HIS CHIEF LOFTY EMMINENCE
CARDINAL PARAGON PUFFERY OF PARAGUE.
.
Please
back slowly
out of the room
with your sock'd tootsies
astride the line of gold tiles in the floor
until you are well outside the gold double doors.
Keep your eyes to the floor.
Shuffle your feet in unision.
to the familiar
POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE
this time as a RECESSIONAL.
You are to never speak of
your 7 second audience
with His Excellency,
The Supremely Gloriously Humble One,
CARDINAL PARAGON PUFFERY OF PRAGUE,
because it is an insult to the stature of his office
to ever let the masses know that
The Glorious One had to view the unwashed for 7 seconds.

You may purchase a small vial
Of the EXALTED DR HUMBLE'S
SACRED SNOT
at the sacred relics shop
between the back gilded double doors
and the street.
.
His sacred snot is guaranteed
to have been gleaned from the freshest
of saintly white hankies
newly fallen from the heavens
fresh from Heaven on Sunday mornings
only during lent.
CARDINAL HUMBLE refuses to
touch his snozolla with any other.
.
ENOUGH! BE GONE!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Church believes, and has always believed, that the quotations of Christ are worth immeasureably more than the writings of the Chronicler. The difference between the Creator and the created.

"Immeasurably more???"

Thus the church in Rome displays its arrogant myopia regarding God's word.