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To: Forest Keeper
Was it you and I who were having the conversation about Mount Sinai?

The closest thing to a theological statement about this that I've heard is that Mary's will is united to Christ's -- as we pray ours will be.

Digression: Augustine - letter to Proba - when we pray, as instructed, "They will be done," we are asserting the submission or making to offering of that submission of our will to His. Makes sense to me.

This, not the slander that was aimed at me, was included in what I meant when I said Mary was eschatological: In her is "now" fulfilled, we hold, what is promised to all the blessed in the "future." I do not minimize or explain away the Assumption. I celebrate it in ALL that it implies, including the union perfected perfected by Love between Redeemer and Redeemed. And we hope that our will also will be united with Christ's.

So HOW this works, I have no idea. But if it is thought of as some kind of clash ...

Mary to Jesus: Son, I have something I want to ask you.
Jesus: Stop! I know what you're going to say ...
that just has to be ridiculous. The problem, or part of it, is wondering how two distinct wills could be so united in Love that they are in perfect concord. I can no more imagine it than I can imagine what it would be like to see Jesus in Heaven. What's a "spiritual body" anyway?

Short answer: I have no idea.

BUT there is the kind of concreteness, this sense that things are not MERELY what they seem. To be the God-bearer, in our concrete and creation-affirming way off doing business, can't be JUST a matter of being kind of a surrogate mother as the gentiles are trying to make regular motherhood. We have kids. They are at once one with us and so different as to be a constant wonder. And that's with just regular kids. They (with Grace) make us more charitable toward the whole world. That's not an insignificant change.

So I think one could say there's a sort of extrapolation.

2,184 posted on 05/06/2010 2:51:24 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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To: Mad Dawg; 1000 silverlings
Was it you and I who were having the conversation about Mount Sinai?

I have some memory of talking about Mount Sinai in comparing it with other Holy "nouns" and what is proper in treating such, but I'm not sure. The last thing I remember our talking about was the Scholastic approach to what God can and cannot do, as has been discussed earlier here. About that, now I think I have a much better idea of what you are talking about. On this thread you made a couple of summary statements with which I fully agreed.

The closest thing to a theological statement about this that I've heard is that Mary's will is united to Christ's -- as we pray ours will be. ......... In her is "now" fulfilled, we hold, what is promised to all the blessed in the "future."

That kind of surprises me. I would have thought the Catholic view is that Mary's will is united to Christ's in a wholly unique way such that we will never know. I surmise that because right now I thought the view is that Mary has a very unique working role with God AS OPPOSED to the rest of the departed. For example, none of us could "aspire" to dispensing graces because we will never have the relationship with God that Mary is said to have now. Likewise, none of us could ever aspire to the level of "Queen of Heaven", etc. I would have thought that this separation is directly related to the relationship Mary has with God as opposed to our own.

BUT there is the kind of concreteness, this sense that things are not MERELY what they seem. To be the God-bearer, in our concrete and creation-affirming way of doing business, can't be JUST a matter of being kind of a surrogate mother as the gentiles are trying to make regular motherhood.

And naturally my immediate thought is: "But why not?" :) Of course it was unique and special as special gets, but I don't understand how this elevates Mary in comparison to other mother-child bonding. Not being a mother, I can only guess that this special bond is greatly related to the fact that the child came from the mother and is a part of her. Since certainly Catholicism does NOT hold that Mary contributed an ounce to Christ's divinity, I don't see how THAT sort of bonding (bonding above and beyond "normal" bonding) can be asserted to be between Christ and Mary. Even later, we do not see bonding related to Christ's divinity given the scene where Mary questions Jesus for staying back to preach at age 12. There, Mary treated Jesus as any other loving mother would: "You scared the daylights out of us, what were you thinking???" :)

Further, even if we granted this special bonding for the sake of argument, is this somehow completely separate from the concept of the union of the wills with God? IOW, I don't see how it can be said that Mary has this special bonding with Christ, BUT we can nevertheless have a same union of wills with God that she has. Thinking of the role she is said to be playing in Heaven, I would have thought that her special place in Catholicism would be predicated on both her bond with Christ and her union of wills being unique.

2,270 posted on 05/07/2010 1:04:47 PM PDT by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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