St. Peter and the Primacy of Rome

Ignatius Insigiht.com ^ | not given | Stephen K. Ray

[Catsrus]

Nor is there any record of Peter ever being in Rome. It was Paul who preached to the Romans. Anyone can twist scriptures to make them fit a particular teaching.

Your post was spot on!

[count-your-change]

I saw #22, thanks. Point?

[Judith Anne]

Well, posts 22 and 23 directly address your post. Is that obscure to you?

[count-your-change]

Neither is obscure and neither establishes a primacy over the other apostles for Peter.
Paul said the apostles and prophets were foundation stones with Christ as the cornerstone. Peter was one of those foundation stones that the church was built upon. (Eph. 2:20)

[pgyanke]

You keep referring to Roman Catholicism as a denomination as though it were one of the 25,000 Protestant factions. No. We are the trunk of the tree, not simply a branch. We are the tree from which “denominations” took root. You use the Bible we codified. You mimic our liturgy and follow our calendar. You set up authority in episcopate structures with the seat of power in Canterbury or Billy Graham or your local pastor in recognition of the need for such an authority.

We are over a billion strong and growing. The Eastern Orthodox, who are far more like-minded to us Catholics than to Protestant theology, are another half billion. The Protestant world is approx 300 million total... and yet each denomination looks to its Mother Church and tells Her to conform... hubris!

[Diamond]

..25,000 Protestant factions...

Source?

[pgyanke]

I’ve heard greater numbers referenced before but I try to be generous when I don’t have the exact numbers at my fingertips. Due to your challenge, I did a little research to find a good source. You are correct... I was wrong...

According to World Christian Encyclopedia, there are over 33,000 denominations in 238 countries having increased in number from 8,196 in 1970.

[srweaver]

Just because the Roman Catholic church likes to jump in front of God’s parade and claim to be its originator/organizer/sustainer does not make it so. Even if the RCC currently has the “biggest” float in the parade, it does not mean it is the best, not that its adherents are all actually “believers” (true of all Christian sects).

Silly me, I though Jesus was the vine, and we are the branches (John 15:5). I didn’t realize there was the “trunk” of a “tree” between the vine and His branches.

In actuality, the only true church that really exists is comprised of the “branches” that abide in the vine, regardless of what “other” label or “communion” they associate themselves with.

[srweaver]

You quoted:
I wrote to William Webster and asked him if he knew of any Church Father who denied the primacy of Peter or of his successors. Mr. Webster’s response was very telling, and I wish he had been forthright about this matter in his book. His return E-mail stated, “No father denies that Peter had a primacy or that there is a Petrine succession. The issue is how the fathers interpreted those concepts. They simply did not hold to the Roman Catholic view of later centuries that primacy and succession were ‘exclusively’ related to the bishops of Rome.” [2] What an extraordinary admission; what an extraordinary truth. Many of the Fathers were in theological or disciplinary disagreement with Rome (for example, Cyprian and Irenaeus), yet they never denied Rome’s primacy. They may have debated what that primacy meant, or how it was to work out in the universal Church, but they never denied the primacy.

Did they deny the primacy of Paul, or James, or John?

Did they reject the superiority of Jerusalem, or Corinth, or Antioch?

Perhaps their silence is related to the non-issue of these matters in their day.

[pgyanke]

Silly you, indeed. You ridicule what you don't understand. I prefer open dialogue with my brothers and sisters in Christ. This is my watchword in these matters:

Mark 9:38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40 "For he who is not against us is for us. 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.

I am content to let Jesus be the Shepherd of His flock. There is a communion based on the leadership and succession of the Apostles that is called the Roman Catholic Church (or simply "the Church" to those who belong). That does not mean that Christ has no other friends in this world... and the same goes for us. Anyone who professes the Name of Jesus is my friend and I will share the truth of our Faith in charity but leave it to Jesus to sort His Flock when the time comes.

[Salvation]

Do You Love Me?

“Do You Love Me?”

April 19th, 2010 by Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D.

On many occasions I’ve heard non-Catholics object to the papacy.  Often, they say something like this: “I just can’t believe that one man on earth, the Pope, is holier than everyone else.”  So who ever said that being sinless is either a prerequisite or a consequence of being named Pope?

For the Pope, the bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter, who spent the last years of his life leading the Christians of the eternal city.  And here is an interesting fact.  None of the four  canonical gospels (not to mention Acts and Galatians) try to hide the fact that Peter sinned often and sinned big.  By the way, if the “patriarchal, controlling” leaders of the early Catholic Church altered the story about Jesus as the DaVinci Code suggests, don’t you think they would have “fixed” these embarrassing stories?

Yet while all agree Peter was weak and imperfect, they all also agree that he was given a unique responsibility.   Only Peter got a name-change from Jesus himself (from Simon to “Peter” meaning rock).  Only Peter was told by Christ on Holy Thursday night “I have prayed for you that your faith never fail and when you’ve repented, go and strengthen your brethren” (Lk 22: 31-32).  And when Jesus, after the resurrection, cooked a fish breakfast for the apostles (Jn 21), it was only to Peter that Jesus put the question, “Do you love me?”

But why did Jesus ask him the same question three times?  Perhaps Peter needed to atone for his three-fold denial of Christ by a three-fold profession of love.  Perhaps, given Peter’s track record of getting it wrong, the Lord really wanted to be sure he got it right this time.  Here’s the point–

“Peter, your way of expressing penance for your sin and love for me will be to feed my sheep.  Remember, they are not your sheep, but mine.  Take care of them for me.  Do for them what I did for them.  Don’t just feed them.  Protect them.  Lay down your life for them if necessary.”

Peter’s role as a Shepherd is, in a way, unique because it is universal.  Despite his human frailty, he is given care of all the Churches.  And, if we take Luke 22:31-32 seriously, he is called to be the shepherd of all the shepherds.  That’s a big responsibility.  In fact, it is a crushing burden which he could never fulfill on his own power.  That’s why we pray for the Pope (meaning “Papa” or father) in every Catholic Eucharist across the globe — He needs the grace of the Holy Spirit to fulfill his role.  The bit about Peter stretching out his hands with others leading him where he does not want to go does not just refer to his crucifixion under Nero, but to the daily laying his life down for his flock, the “white martyrdom” that we can saw so clearly in the weary but relentless witness of John Paul II.

In another way, though, Peter’s role as a Shepherd is not unique.  It is exemplary for all of us sheep who are called to become ourselves shepherds and leaders, despite our own frailty and sinfulness.  Some are called to be bishops, successors of the apostles, entrusted with pastoral care of a portion of Christ’s flock.  Some are called to be priests and deacons, who assist a bishop in his apostolic mission.  Some are called to be catechists, youth ministers and teachers, who also play a role in the feeding of the sheep.

And most of us are called to be parents, shepherds of what the Second Vatican Council calls “the domestic church.”  Parents, say St. Thomas Aquinas and John Paul II, have a pastoral role much like that of a parish priest.  In fact, John Paul II, in his letter Familiaris Consortio, said that the Catholic parent exercises “a true ministry of the Church.”

On whatever level, the call to feed and care for the sheep is a call to sacrifice, not privilege.  It has its moments of exaltation and profound satisfaction, but it has its moments of agony as well.  But if we’ve learned anything from the passion, it’s that suffering is the true and necessary test of love, as well as love’s most authentic and powerful expression.   So let us not be afraid to be shepherds.  The Good Shepherd will empower us with His Spirit.  And let’s pray with gratitude and compassion for those who shepherd us.

 

Dr. D'Ambrosio studied under Avery Cardinal Dulles for his Ph.D. in historical theology and taught for many years at the University of Dallas. He now directs www.crossroadsinitiative.com, which offers Catholic resources for RCIA and adult and teen faith formation, with a special emphasis on the Eucharist, the Theology of the Body, the early Church Fathers, and the Sacrament of Confirmation.

(This article originally appeared in Our Sunday Visitor and is used by permission of the author.)

[Salvation]

**If you wanted to “focus” on some of the material in the text/footnotes for discussion that would be helpful.**

LOL! I posted the entire chapter so that people could see that you were taking one line “OUT OF CONTEXT”.

YOPIOS — you only look at the scripture you want to use to slame Catholics, St. Peter, in this case, and in doing so — you elevate St. Paul above Jesus Christ. I don’t think St. Paul would approve of your YOPIOS.

[srweaver]

So how does your lengthy post address the fact that James, Jesus’ half brother, was the leader of the Jerusalem church, and Paul rebuked Peter for hypocrisy.

The issue addressed was Peter’s lack of primacy in his own day, in his own spheres of influence.

And which “line” did I take out of context? My original post referenced the whole chapter (Galatians 2), so those interested could look it up and read it for themselves...”in context.”

Are you affirming that Peter had primacy over James and Paul during his lifetime? If so, you should produce the scriptures that attest to that.

[srweaver]

You posted: “you only look at the scripture you want to use to slame Catholics...”

Actually, you started this discussion entitled “St. Peter and the Primacy of Rome” on a public discussion forum. I assume this was/is because you wanted to discuss it publicly, including with people who disagree with Catholic dogma.

If that is not the case, there are other ways/places to post on FreeRepublic...and elsewhere.

[BenKenobi]

[quote]
they start promoting their denomination over Christ
[/quote]

How do you make sense of Ephesians when Paul talks about Christ and his Church? Christ isn’t a bigamist. There’s just one wife just as there is one Church. We don’t ‘worship Rome’, we follow the Church as established by Christ himself.

[srweaver]

It appears you think Jesus is already married to an institution, the RCC.

Actually, He is not married “yet,” and His bride will be those who have chosen/continued in a personal relationship with Him through faith, not those who have aligned themselves with a temporal institution.

Jesus will marry his bride (Revelation 19) after the angels separate the wheat from the tares (Matthew 13).

[Diamond]

Due to your challenge, I did a little research to find a good source. You are correct... I was wrong...

I was not right or wrong about anything. I didn't make any assertion or claim. I just asked for the source of your statistic of 25,000 Protestant "factions".

I did a little research to find a good source... According to World Christian Encyclopedia, there are over 33,000 denominations in 238 countries having increased in number from 8,196 in 1970.

Here you use the word, "denominations" instead of "factions". The 2001 edition of your source has it at 8,973 Protestant "denominations", not 25,000 or 33,000.

Also, according to your own source, included in that total of 33,000 "denominations" are Orthodox (781) and Roman Catholics (242)

Cordially,

[Terabitten]

Seems to me that it’s a lot easier to believe in the spiritual authority of the papacy now, when the men who’ve occupied that position have been undeniably good, holy men.

It’d be a LOT harder to make that argument if we had a Pope like Alexander VI.

It’d be interesting to do a correlation study between “good” popes (those who were pious, humble believers) and “bad” popes and the oppostion to Rome.

[BenKenobi]

Jesus created his Church.

“His bride will be those who have chosen/continued in a personal relationship”.

I don’t see ‘personal relationship’ anywhere in scripture. Jesus isn’t your boyfriend.

He does say that he created His Church and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

“with a temporal institution.”

That’s just it. His Church exists for all times. It is not a temporal institution. Christ founded the Catholic church.

[srweaver]

You can keep making your circular argument all you want, but that doesn’t make it biblical.

Jesus died so men can be saved, with two conditions — repentance and faith, which brings one into a “personal relationship” with God, or results in conversion or new birth. If you need, let me know, and I will clarify further and reference scripture.

No, Jesus isn’t my boyfriend, but He is my creator, my brother, my savior and my master, and His Father is my Dad. One day, along with the rest of those who have a personal relationship with Christ, I will constitute His bride, as I now (along with the rest of those who have a personal relationship with Him) constitute His body.

I don’t recall the Bible teaching that Jesus came to found the Roman Catholic church. I do recall it teaching that He came to save men from their sins, and the conditions for that to take place.

You are correct, “the gates of hell will not prevail against Jesus’ church” — those who have a personal relationship with Him.