Posted on 04/15/2010 8:23:04 AM PDT by WhatsItAllAbout
Yes, they have abandoned the traditions of the early fathers and turned to superstitions.
Hmmmm...he looks a lot like Pope Leo. But if you remove that funny hat they all look the same.
AMEN!
And for the Gospel only purists......
John 10:7 Therefore Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Negative. You have posted an outstanding post.
First, the post does not turn on John 6:44. The post turns on several passages that speak to predestination, and the companion foreknowledge. But, let us focus on this claim that John 12:32 addresses the same thing that Jesus was speaking of in John 6. Notice, in John 6:44 Jesus specifically promises that the "drawn" (whoever that may be) will be raised up on the last day.
Yes, that is what it says.
Now, unless you are a universalist (some Catholics I have met are), Jesus was discriminating between those he would absolutely rescue, if they were drawn, and everyone else.
Negative. Jesus said that he would draw all men. Drawing is not an absolute rescue, just as Scripture as written is inspired, and not dictated.
If you are correct that all individuals are drawn, then all individuals will be resurrected. Talk about a "hard" predestination...this is hard universalism, a bigger heresy than indulgences.
Negative again. Drawing is not salvation.
Your entire point rests on the word "all" in John 12, meaning "every individual". However, the word in John 6:44 is "oudeis", "no one" or "not one" individually while the word in John 12:32 is "pantas", or simply "all" (accusative, plural, masculine) without reference to whether it means all individuals, all men, all mankind, all nations or whatever. Please don't call in your buddy with a fourth grade Greek education, I won't address his gross mistatements and inaccuracies.
The trouble is that my friend knows more Greek and Church Slavonic than I am ever likely to know, and knows it well. However, all still means all.
Even Paul hops onto the all means all bandwagon.
Titus 2: 11 2 For the grace of God has appeared, saving all 12 and training us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age, 13 as we await the blessed hope, the appearance 3 of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to deliver us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people as his own, eager to do what is good.
We argue that since we now know from John 6:65 that Jesus could not be speaking of "every individual" (unless you believe Judas was the only guy in history to be left out), then He must be addressing "all nationalities" whether Dutch or Yurok Indian or Jewish. And that has, without question, occurred. He has drawn the world to Himself...just NOT every individual man in the world.
Umm, how do you know that Judas was left out? How do you know the final Judgement of Judas?
But, if God's foreknowledge is not perfect (at best a good guess) then the future is unfolding for God just as it is for you and I. He has no idea what the stock market will do today, since it is comprised of billions of individual "free will" choices. Since He doesn't affect (or rather "effect") them, then He sits and waits until the close. Is this really the God described in the Bible? I submit that if one holds to a God waiting for his creatures to act, that man worships a caraciture of a really smart human. Blasphemy.
God's foreknowledge is perfect, since He has already experienced all of time. Alpha and Omega. God does not wait for His creatures to act.
Rather, the Scripture indicates His knowledge is perfect because He manages to accomplish all that occurs, Is. 45:6, 7, "That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no other besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity (literally "evil"); I am the Lord who does all these." I can find dozens of passages like this. Sorry Mark...He wins.
A couple of points. The claim of God causing evil is simply wrong. God is the opposite of evil. He is not, and cannot be the cause of evil. The second is that God is the God of Mercy, of Love, and of Salvation. Are all men saved? Obviously not, since not all men are saved. Yet we must consider:
Isaiah 45: 23 By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word: To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear, 24 Saying, "Only in the LORD are just deeds and power. Before him in shame shall come all who vent their anger against him.
which is mirrored in:
Philippians 2: 9 Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name 7 that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, 8 of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.
1 Timothy 2: Chapter 2 1 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
Revelation 5: 11 I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless 5 in number, 12 and they cried out in a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing." 13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: "To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever."
Oh, boy. I am not a Universalist, but these verses are pretty significant towards a universal offer of grace and recognition of God. It is not a matter of God winning. It is a matter of the reason for His Creation - to have a willing love for Him forever in Heaven.
They pray to saints, asking for mercy, assign God's attributes to Mary** and violate God's commandments in ways to numerous to count.
Their behavior is really no different than Eve's in the garden when she added to what God said.
*Little g
**If she is watching she is no doubt weeping because her Son's sacrifice cheapened/demeaned to such a large degree.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Thx thx.
I believe you are quite correct.
Am I missing something in the OP? I don’t get it.
these threads are so depressing. I think I’ll go eat a fig newton
Funny because don’t the Hindus have about a trillion gods? There’s the rat god, the elephant god, the monkey god, etc. Some drink milk, others like Kali, destroy the world. Yeah, pick one, Mother Theresa, whatever “good” she did, has her reward somewhere.
Very well all of your interpretations of Scripture have finally shown me "What it's all about". Even though I have yearned for a father who would love me, keep me safe, and show me the way, even though my earthly father had abandoned me, it is to no avail, there is no father for the fatherless.
I have reached for just a thread of salvation, but it passes me by
Not having the privilege of being selected, being rejected and used only as an example of every thing wrong in this world has indeed hardened my heart. My destiny is written my misery and despair know no limits, nothing I can do will change my fate.
Like Job I have lost it all, but no hedge protects me neither God or man has any concern for my well deserved fate. Love flees from my grasp, mercy is foreign to me. Misery
Despair
Rejection
Hopelessness are my fate. But, the answer is...that is just the way it is."
Had to reprint your entire response because it is so very good. However, if you can tolerate it, read on.
First, these are not my "interpretations of Scripture". These passages are large chunks which tell the story of the Gospel. Historically, this was the message most all of those opposing Rome held during the Reformation.
Second, if you have reached for a thread of salvation, it may have indeed passed you by. OR it may be that God has elected you and implanted faith and you are coming to the end of yourself. Dependence upon your "decision", your efforts, your holiness. You may be beginning to see just how reliant we are upon Him to hold us. Time will tell you whether you are being brought into His family or excluded.
Recall, the difference between Jacob and Esau. Esau He hated and even when Esau sought repentence "with tears", he was excluded. But, Jacob, even as much of a deceiver as he was, was loved and became the one to have the twelve tribes. Was it because he chose? On the contrary, it was because he was irresistably called. If you are among those elected, you will be unable to shake your compulsion to entrust yourself to Jesus. You will find yourself holding to His righteousness and denying your own. You will agree with Paul when he says, "There is no one who is good. Not even one. No one seeks God." You will eventually agree that He sought you, you did not seek Him.
So, third, you cannot tell that you have not been "selected". You may wish to whine like, "poor little me, I didn't get chosen, and pity will make this doctrine wrong." But, this is more of your pride speaking, not true recognition that, in you dwells no good thing. We will not feel sorry for you. When this becomes, "Praise God, for there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus!", as Paul says, you are seeing that all righteousness, all holiness, all goodness, all faith is a gift implanted, not by your synergistic choosing.
Herein is the error of Catholicism. It seeks to provide means by which men can decide to be saved. Do this, think that, choose this, perform that, obey this, join that, believe this, say that...all man-centered theological constructs. All full of death and darkness of self. Unless Christ determines to rescue us, there is nothing.
Job did in fact come to see this, when he slapped his hand over his mouth and said, "I have no right to speak!" God shouted at him for two chapters about who Job thought he was to call the God of Heaven and earth to task for the path given to Job. Job's eyes were opened and he said, "This is your right!" That realization is echoed by Paul, "How can the clay say to the potter you have no right over the clay to make me thus?" That's right...we are putty in His hands.
So, misery, despair, rejection are all good thoughts...as long as they point toward your sin and your inability to do what it is that Jesus required as He taught the Law. When (or if) you reach the end of your rope and say, "How then can any man be saved?" as the disciples did, hopefully the light will dawn, "Good question...what is impossible with man is possible with God." to accomplish. But even that recognition is controlled by God. Man cannot even control what it is he comes to recognize.
Maybe hopeslessness is your fate, as it is for every lost man and woman in history. On the other hand, it may that God is breaking your heart and wooing you away from self reliance to that desperate feeling of being in His hands, alone. It hurts greatly to face the disappointment of our inadequacy. But as Paul writes, "Our adequacy is in Him." His grip is the safest place to be.
You may be being dragged into the family of God. The route generally leads "through the knothole backwards". It hurts, it traumatizes, it sobers everyone who has been brought to the end of themselves. Ask any Reformed thinker here at FR and you will find...they ached until they thought it would never quit. Then the light of salvation in Jesus alone brought refreshing relief.
When were they saved? Most don't really know the exact date. What day was Paul saved on? When the voice came? When he sat in the house in Damascus? During the three years in Arabia? He doesn't say. It is clear, "Once I was blind, but now I see." That was enough.
I was reading this earlier today:
Exodus 33 (KJV)
17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Every word gets an AMEN! The Christian distinctive is real and God-ordained. The temporal world seeks to tell us it's all up to men, but the truth is that now and always it is up to God. His call. Thank God.
I can only add my AMEN as well.
Amen, and amen! The message througout the Scriptures.
Aren't we all! Think how much more we'll learn when we leave this mortal coil.
1 Timothy 2: 1 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
Everyone. Every human being, not some fictitious elect.
1 Timothy 4: 10 For this we toil and struggle, 4 because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all, especially of those who believe.
All that is required is belief here, according to Paul.
Titus 2: 11 2 For the grace of God has appeared, saving all
The grace of God saves all. This is not Reformed belief. They lean on misinterpretations of Paul and snippets of the OT. Let us now turn to:
Ezekial 18: 23 Do I indeed derive any pleasure from the death of the wicked? says the Lord GOD. Do I not rather rejoice when he turns from his evil way that he may live? 24 And if the virtuous man turns from the path of virtue to do evil, the same kind of abominable things that the wicked man does, can he do this and still live? None of his virtuous deeds shall be remembered, because he has broken faith and committed sin; because of this, he shall die. 25 You say, "The LORD'S way is not fair!" Hear now, house of Israel: Is it my way that is unfair, or rather, are not your ways unfair? 26 When a virtuous man turns away from virtue to commit iniquity, and dies, it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. 27 But if a wicked man, turning from the wickedness he has committed, does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life; 28 since he has turned away from all the sins which he committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 And yet the house of Israel says, "The LORD'S way is not fair!" Is it my way that is not fair, house of Israel, or rather, is it not that your ways are not fair? 30 Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Turn and be converted from all your crimes, that they may be no cause of guilt for you. 31 Cast away from you all the crimes you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, says the Lord GOD. Return and live!
No predetermination here. Every man is exhorted to turn himself from evil and return to God. The Reformed do not use Ezekial 18 in their doctrines.
2 Peter 3: 1 1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you; through them by way of reminder I am trying to stir up your sincere disposition, 2 to recall the words previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and savior through your apostles. 3 Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers 2 will come (to) scoff, living according to their own desires 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? 3 From the time when our ancestors fell asleep, everything has remained as it was from the beginning of creation." 5 They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water 4 by the word of God; 6 through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. 5 7 The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless. 8 6 7 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard "delay," but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
The Lord wishes that all should come to repentance ie salvation. Hmm, nothing on Reformed doctrine here.
And, because the Reformed disdain Jesus, I will complete my argument with the words of Our Lord and Saviour.
John 3: 14 And just as Moses lifted up 5 the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 6 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
That the world might be saved through him. Believe in Jesus, believe in God, and believe in His word.
For example, I write "it MAY have indeed passed you by. OR it MAY be that God has elected you and implanted faith and you are coming to the end of yourself.
But, you write,
"Having been excluded and passed by your words offer me no comfort."
I was not attempting to comfort you, but call attention to the truth with which we all must deal. If you are in God's crosshairs, you cannot yet know that you are excluded. Here again you claim to be determining your destiny.
You write, "Call me Esau my tears are of no avail, since the beginning I have been doomed, God has not sought me and has left me blind and lame in my search for him."
Okay, Esau.
You write,
"Misery
Despair
Rejection
Hopelessness are my fate.
But, my point was that not even you (in all of this peculiar whining) are really in charge of your "fate". Your destiny is in the hands of the One who made you and He will bring you to Himself, or perhaps leave you in a state of self-pity. We don't yet know. Neither sarcasm or cynicism will change this biblical truth.
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