Posted on 03/12/2010 7:02:37 AM PST by Colofornian
Excellent ‘anti’ sites. LOL.
The LDS complain about people like the Tanners but all of the Tanner’s sources are LDS sources.
The LDS Church is its Second worst enemy. Christ is the LDS’ worst enemy.
Pretty neat trick in the old days before the net left a record in its path...
I don’t think anyone will answer, you are right, they never do.
But it was a good slip in reference “sure sign (of the nail)” that I was hoping at least someone would get.
References aren’t as fun if no one gets them.
And I love the posters who claim they have proven us wrong ‘over and over again’ yet never answer the questions or post links to where they say the have proven us wrong.
Did you objectively search for the truth about the founder of mormonism? If you had, you would find that the whole religion is founded upon very shaky ground. If you subscribe to the belief that JS was an honorable, chaste and virtuous man, then one has been mislead. He was none of those, in fact, he was the antithesis of those values and morals.
I will preface the following with this; most mormons are good and decent people, like any other group of people, they have their bad apples. I am married to a mormon, a very active mormon. Works in the temple, so that should tell you that she is obeying the tenets of her faith.
For those who have been encouraged to research the LdS religion, I will tell you this as an apostate, a member of the Melchizidek Priesthood, temple recommend holder, sealed to my wife in the Washington D.C. temple, an active and fully participating member of the LdS for over 6 years.
A man whose eyes were finally opened because of the efforts of the very people on this board who have been accused of lying and attacking a religion that many of them know intimately because they were members at one time. Some were born into it, having family history that traces back to the founding of mormonism.
It goes without saying that the basis for the religion is JS. One must have complete faith in him and what he purported was the truth. Yet, for reasonable people, this is impossible because as we now know, he was a liar and a deceiver. A less than common manipulator, thief and adulterer. He took those traits to a whole other level.
It is well known that the LdS contradict themselves in their scripture, in their teachings and in their doctrine. They can’t reconcile their doctrine with the Bible, though they try, because in their Articles of Faith, they denigrate the Bible with the disclaimer “As far as it is translated correctly”. So from the beginning, they marginalized the Bible and its teachings in order to put in place their own perverted religion.
One need only look at those simple facts and it should be readily apparent that there is no truth to be found within mormonism. It is unbiblical and unchristian. Where in the Bible can one find the scripture that states that men can become gods? Where in the Bible can one find that men are to be rulers over kingdoms with a harem of women giving birth to “spirit babies” for eternity?
Sounds suspiciously like islam doesn’t it? The promise of 72 virgins comes to mind. Promise an earthly man eternal sex and you’re going to have quite a following.
For the lurkers or any other poster, I encourage you to please do as was recommended on this thread. Research mormonism, research the teachings, the doctrine, the history. Do so objectively, but do so by comparing a conventional KJV of the Bible to the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible to see the significant differences between the two. Do so by asking your pastor, church leader or a person you trust that has a knowledge of scripture. One you can trust to be reasonable and reasonably unbiased in helping you to discover the truth.
Don’t do so based on how nice a mormon is. Do so based on your desire for Biblical truth and your eternal salvation.
Milk before meat? “A Christian would never do so.”
Then you are ignorant of what the Bible teaches:
1 Cor 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with MILK, and not with MEAT: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Heb 5:12-14 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of MILK, and not of strong MEAT. For every one that useth MILK is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong MEAT belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1 Pet 2:1-2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere MILK of the word, that ye may grow thereby.
The principle of teaching people milk before the meat is biblical and is just common sense. Basics before deep concepts. You do not teach a child calculus until after he has mastered the basics of mathematics.
If you were a Mormon for 45 years then you should know better. Protestantism has NOTHING to offer other than a simplistic view of salvation using a criteria that, if applied honestly, saves the Mormon just as well as it saves the Protestant. After all if membership in a church doesn’t save, only an acceptance of Christ as one’s Savior; then Mormons are also saved because we fully accept Christ as God, as God’s only Begotten Son, as the only way to heaven, and so forth. There is NO biblical teaching about Christ we reject. Not one. And you, as one who supposedly lived as a Mormon for 45 years, SHOULD KNOW that.
As a Mormon, I’ve no doubt if you stay in your current Protestant church, worship and adore Christ, and strive to be a good person that you will go to your heaven when you die. Static eternal bliss is what you want and I’m sure you’re going to get it. That’s the MOST you can expect. For me, that’s the LEAST I can expect provided I stay a faithful follower of Christ as a Mormon. The MOST I can expect is exaltation. Thus, a Mormon has nothing to gain and the possibility of exaltation to lose by leaving the church. Why be upset at this? You reject outright the notion of exaltation, so surely, my portrayal of your heaven as static eternal bliss cannot be offensive. After all, if there’s a possibility of growth, given an open-ended eternity, exaltation is inevitable.
As for your suicide literalism of Second Isaiah’s exclusivity, why not acknowledge the three interwoven concepts of Isa 40-48:
(1) The falsity and uselessness of idols and the gods they represent (Isa 40:18-21; 41:22-24,26,29; 42:8,17; 43:12; 44:9-20; 45:20; 46:1-2,5-7; 48:5).
(2) The certainty of the uniqueness of Jehovah, who is the only God (Isa 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5-7,18,21-22; 46:9).
(3) The fact that it was only Jehovah who created the heavens and the earth (40:12,26,28; 42:5; 44:24; 45:8-12,18; 48:13).
By arranging these three thoughts and their relationships with each other we find that in every single instance when Jehovah says there aren’t any gods beside him, before him or after him, or he doesn’t know of any other gods; these denials are always in close proximity with the other two main thoughts of these nine chapters.
What this means is it is dishonest to take the exclusivity declarations out of context. It is especially so when you use it in blithe disregard to the New Testament’s repeated claim that Christ’s true followers are transformed into replicas of him and share his oneness with the Father.
The New Testament’s description of the Sanctified, Christ’s true followers, leaves no other interpretation than deification (which is why the Church Fathers repeatedly taught it at least 150 times). Here are several hundred passages showing deification awaits Christ’s true followers (I can provide explanations why I selected each passage so if you don’t understand why I use them, feel free to ask and I’ll explain). Taken as a whole, it shows the LDS Doctrine of Exaltation to be overwhelmingly biblical:
1. The Sanctified Are Transformed into Replicas of the Glorified Jesus Christ
(1) Rom 8:29 The sanctified are molded into the same image as Jesus Christ. Whatever the glorious resurrected Jesus is; the sanctified become like him.
(2) 1 Cor 15:43,48-49 We are created after the image of the earthly man, Adam, but the sanctified will be further transformed into the image of the resurrected and glorified Jesus Christ.
(3) 2 Cor 3:18 When we [the sanctified] look in a mirror, we see reflected back the glory of God and are transformed into that same image, from glory to [additional] glory. We are changed into the same image Jesus is in, from glory to glory. If we are transformed into the same glorious image God is comprised of, we can become “God/Gods/gods” ourselves by receiving a “share”of the glory of God. (cf. Gal 2:20).
(4) Gal 4:19 Paul claimed to be like a woman in labor for the sake of these members until they reach the stage where they are transformed into images of Christ.
(5) Eph 4:11-15 The sanctified will become perfect based upon the template of the perfected Jesus. The glorious immortal Christ is the standard or measurement for those who will be perfected. Jesus Christ’s perfection make him “True God” and the sanctified are supposed to grow into the “die” or mold Christ is the template of, making themselves replicas of Christ.
(6) Eph 4:24 The new man is created after the image of God.
(7) Phil 3:20-21 Our citizenship is in heaven. Jesus will change our corruptible (lowly) bodies into replicas of his glorious body.
(8) Col 3:10 The sanctified [new man] is created after God’s appearance. The elect are holy and beloved by God. In other words, the sanctified in the next life resemble God, are glorious and holy beings, beloved by God (Col 3:4,10,12). “This transformation has God’s image for its model.”
(9) 1 Jn 2:29-3:3 The righteous are born of God and are called the children of God. They will resemble Jesus Christ at his coming. All who have this hope will purify themselves just as Christ is pure.
(10) Heb 6:12-20 Jesus is the forerunner. This isn’t about Jesus being the first to be resurrected since the book of Hebrews only discusses his resurrection at the end of the book (Heb 13:20). He is the first and pioneered the way for others to follow [just as he is the first to be resurrected (1 Cor 15:20)]. He is the first kind of “new humanity” that has both “God” and “Man” natures. The sanctified imitate Christ (1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1; 1 Th 1:6) and become what he became. This promise is the hope the true followers of Christ have.
2. The Sanctified Have the Same “God” Nature of the Father and Son
(John 15:1-11,16; Acts 17:29; 1 Cor 10:16-17; 1 Cor 15:43,48-49; 2 Cor 8:9; Gal 4:7; Heb 2:10-3:1; Heb 3:14; Heb 12:6-10: 1 Pet 1:23; 1 Pet 2:4-5; 2 Pet 1:3-4; 1 Cor 1:9; 2 Cor 13:14; Phil 2:1; 1 Jn 1:3-4; 1 Jn 1:6-7; 1 Jn 3:9-10; Rev 3:4-5)
3. The Sanctified become “One” with the Members of the Godhead
([cf. John 10:30; John 17:11; John 17:22] John 17:11,21-23; 1 Cor 6:17; 1 Cor 12:12-14,19-20; Heb 3:14; 1 Jn 1:3; 1 Cor 10:16-17)
4. The Sanctified Interpenetrate with the Members of the Godhead
([cf. John 10:38; John 13:31-32; John 14:7-13,20; John 17:21-23; 2 Cor 5:19] John 6:56; John 14:17-23,28; John 15:1-11,16; John 17:21-26; Acts 17:28; Rom 6:3-11; Rom 8:1-2,9-13; Rom 8:39; Rom 12:5; Rom 13:14; 1 Cor 1:9,30; 1 Cor 8:6; 1 Cor 10:16-17; 1 Cor 16:24; 2 Cor 5:15-21; 2 Cor 6:16; 2 Cor 13:3-5; Gal 2:20; Gal 3:27-28; Gal 4:6; Gal 4:19; Gal 5:6; Eph 1:6-11; Eph 2:5-6; Eph 2:10; Eph 2:13-18; Eph 3:17; Eph 4:6; Phil 2:1; Phil 2:13; Phil 3:9; Col 1:21-22; Col 1:27-28; Col 2:6-10; Col 3:3; Col 3:11; 1 Th 1:1; 1 Th 2:14; 1 Th 4:14,16; 2 Th 1:1; 2 Tim 2:1; Jas 4:5; 1 Jn 2:23-28; 1 Jn 3:24; 1 Jn 4:4-16; 1 Jn 5:12; 1 Jn 5:20; Jude 1:1)
5. The Sanctified Share Christ’s Transformation (Old Man/New Man)
(Rom 6:3-11; Rom 7:4-6; 2 Cor 4:10-17; 2 Cor 5:17; 2 Cor 13:4; Gal 2:19-20; Gal 5:24; Gal 6:14; Eph 2:5-6; Eph 3:16-20; Eph 4:22-24; Phil 3:9-10; Col 1:24; Col 3:1; Col 3:9-10; 2 Tim 2:11)
6. Christ is the “Head”; the Sanctified are the “Body”
(John 11:52; 1 Cor 12:12-27; Rom 12:4-8; Eph 1:22-23; 4:4,12-16,25; 5:23; Col 1:18-22; 2:10,19; 3:15; Acts 9:4-5; 22:8; 26:14-15 [Saul was persecuting Jesus when he was persecuting the church - Acts 7:58-8:3; 9:1-2; 22:4-5; 26:9-12]).
Does this imagery imply the head has an ontologically different nature than the body; or does it imply the members must have complete unity with one another and with Christ, with the church following the directions of Christ [just like a body follows the directions that come from the head]?
The head and the body of any creature share a common nature. One’s head can’t be more “human” than one’s body. A dog’s head isn’t more “dog” than its body. It isn’t possible for a head to be completely united to a body if their natures are irreconcilable. We know the “head” has a “God” nature and a “man” nature. We also know the “body” has a “man” nature. Despite having two different natures (God and man), the “head” has complete unity with the “body,” making the body share whatever nature the “head” has.
The imagery of Jesus Christ’s unity with his true followers as that of a head with a body implies whatever nature the head has, the body has. If the head has both “God” and “man” natures; so does the body, which is comprised of his true followers.
Having Christ in us and being in Christ means we have perfect unity and “oneness” with him, by having faith in him and by being completely obedient to him (1 Jn 3:24). The Holy Ghost is our constant companion and dwells within us. We are in the justified state and become sanctified, making the Father and Son dwell in us and we in them. We are then transformed into copies of what they are, having glorious, immortal bodies and sharing their “God” nature, power, authority, glory and attributes.
7. Christ is the “Groom”; the Sanctified are the “Bride”
Christ’s relationship with the church is described as him being the groom and his church is his bride (Matt 22:1-14; 25:1-13; Mark 2:19-20; Luke 5:34-35; 12:36; John 3:29; Rom 7:1-6; 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:21-33; Rev 19:7-9; 21:2,9; 22:17; D&C 58:11).
A husband and wife are “one flesh” (Gen 2:24; Mal 2:14-15; Matt 19:5-6; Mark 10:7-9; Eph 5:31). The woman was created from man’s side (Gen 2:21-23) to be his partner and equal, not to be an inferior creature in comparison to the man. No matter how wicked and adulterous a wife may be, it still doesn’t make her nature/species different from her husband. Marriage is only possible between members of the same species. Describing a particular person as being married to a member of another species is ridiculous since marriage brings the implication of ontological similarity and unity.
Despite the description of God being the husband of Israel or Christ is the groom of the church is metaphorical, it doesn’t change the fact that such a metaphor implies complete unity and similar nature, which isn’t possible if the nature of God and man were irreconcilable.
8. The Sanctified Have the Fullness of God
([cf. Col 1:19; 2:9] John 1:12-13,16; Eph 1:22-23; Eph 3:19; Eph 4:13; Col 2:9-10)
9. The Sanctified Will Be Glorified
(1 Sam 2:7-8; Ps 73:23-28; Matt 13:43; John 17:21-23; Rom 2:6-7,10; Rom 3:23; Col 1:27; Rom 5:2; Rom 9:23,26; 1 Th 2:12; 2 Th 2:13-14; 2 Pet 1:3-4; Rom 8:14-21,29-33; Rom 15:7; 2 Cor 3:7-18; 2 Cor 4:17; Eph 1:18; Col 3:4; 1 Cor 2:6-7; 2 Tim 2:10-12; Heb 2:10; 1 Pet 1:7; 1 Pet 4:13-14; 1 Pet 5:1-10)
10. The Sanctified Will Be Perfected
(Matt 5:48; 2 Cor 13:11; Matt 19:21; 2 Cor 13:9; Gal 3:3; Heb 10:14; Eph 4:11-15; Phil 3:10-21; Col 1:21-23,27-28; Col 4:12; Jas 1:4; Heb 7:11,19; Heb 9:8-15; Heb 10:1; Heb 12:23; 1 Pet 5:10)
11. The Sanctified are Heirs
([cf. Matt 21:38/Mark 12:7/Luke 20:14; Heb 1:1-4] Luke 12:32; Luke 22:29; Rom 8:17; Gal 4:1-7,28-31; Eph 1:11-14,18; Heb 6:12-20; Acts 20:32; Acts 26:18; Gal 3:29; Eph 3:6; Eph 5:5; Col 1:12; Col 3:24; Tit 3:7; Heb 3:14; Heb 6:12; Heb 9:15; Heb 11:7-9; 1 Pet 1:3-5; 1 Pet 3:7,9; Rev 21:7)
12. The Sanctified Receive “All Things”
([cf. Matt 11:27; John 3:35; John 13:3; John 16:15; John 17:10] Luke 12:41-44; Rom 8:32; 1 Cor 3:21-23; 2 Cor 4:15; 2 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 6:17; 2 Pet 1:3; Rev 21:7)
13. The Sanctified Will Rule and Reign
(Luke 12:32; Luke 22:29-30; 1 Cor 4:8; Eph 2:5-7; 2 Tim 2:10-12; 2 Tim 4:8; Jas 1:12; 1 Pet 5:4; Rev 1:6; Rev 3:20-21; Rev 5:10; Rev 20:4; Rev 22:5)
14. The Sanctified Are Holy, Pure, and Sinless
(Heb 12:10; Lev 11:44-45; Rom 6:19; Rev 22:11; 1 Cor 1:2,30; 2 Cor 5:21; Eph 2:19-22; Eph 5:26-27; Col 1:12; 2 Th 1:10; Heb 2:11; Heb 3:1; Heb 10:10,14; Heb 10:19)
15. The Sanctified are Adopted by Christ
(Rom 8:9-39; Rom 9:3-8,22-26; 2 Cor 6:14-18; Gal 3:26-29; Gal 4:5-7; Eph 1:5)
16. The Sanctified are Known as the Children of God
(Matt 5:9; Matt 5:44-45; Luke 20:36; John 11:52; Rom 8:16,21; Rom 9:8; Gal 3:26; Eph 2:19; Phil 2:15; Heb 3:6; 1 Jn 2:29-3:3; 1 Jn 3:9-10; 1 Jn 5:1-4; Rev 21:7).
17.The Sanctified can receive this Transformation because we are the Spirit Offspring of God, with Christ as the Firstborn of us all
(We are the offspring of God: Heb 12:5-9; Acts 17:29; Luke 3:38; Ps 82:6; John 20:17; Heb 2:10-12; John 15:1-11,16; Rom 8:29; Col 1:15; Heb 1:6. Christ is the Firstborn [prototokos]: Rom 8:29; Col 1:15; Col 1:18; Rev 1:5; Heb 1:6; Heb 11:28; Heb 12:23; Matt 1:25; Luke 2:7. We are his Brethren: Rom 8:29; Heb 2:11-12,17)
How, exactly, do you do that?
No, I stand by my statement. My church has NEVER taught that women are inferior. Your arguments are just strawmen - citing the writings of LDS leaders, especially those of the 19th century, does NOT make LDS doctrine.
As I’ve pointed out repeatedly over the years; LDS doctrine is only what is found in our Scriptures and in official proclamations by the LDS leadership. The same things indubitably holds true in your church and in ALL OTHER churches.
Can you point out a single passage in the Latter-day Scriptures where we teach women are inherently inferior to women? Of course not. You have to resort to the personal writings and opinions of certain LDS leaders. I’ve no doubt if I did the same to you concerning your church’s defense of slavery in the 19th century or why women couldn’t become ministers; you would protest that those statements were only their personal opinion and have nothing to do with your church’s official stance even though they were official proclamations.
Right?
That is the HONEST thing to do.
And yet, I see strawmen and non sequiturs in most of your arguments. “outrageously egotistical and sexist”? That’s an argument without foundation. So today’s moral sensibilities are eternal truths and will not be viewed as naive and ignorant by our descendants hundreds of years from now?
What does usage of prescription drugs by women have to do with the belief they are treated as inferior? There are enough stresses in women’s lives, especially LDS women with the emphasis on taking time every month to visit and provide service to each other, to justify taking medication. I take prescription drugs every day to stave off the grim reaper while my wife takes none. Do you seriously think such usage makes me believe I’m being treated as an inferior?
Perhaps you’re referring to psychiatric medication, the drug of choice of combat veterans, first responders, stock brokers, and business executives? If so, then you’re saying elevated use of these psychotropic medication means the patient needs it because they are considered inferior?
Are you serious?!
As for using the word “never” - I use it when I’m absolutely certain of what I’m saying. I don’t pretend my church hasn’t changed some of its doctrines over the years - it has and I don’t find doctrinal modification to be fatal when it corrects a misperception.
(1) Book of Mormon. Title Page ... And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.
(2) 2 Ne 9:20-21 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it. And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.
(3) 2 Ne 11:7 For if there be no Christ there be no God: and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fullness of his own time.
(4) 2 Ne 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.
(5) Mosi 3:5-8 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men. And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and abominations of his people. And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
(6) Mosi 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.
(7) Mosi 7:27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth.
(8) Mosi 26:23,26 For it is I that taketh upon me the sins of the world; for it is I that hath created them; and it is I that granteth unto him that believeth unto the end a place at my right hand ... And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed.
(9) Mosi 27:30-31 I rejected my Redeemer, and denied that which had been spoken of by our fathers; but now that they may foresee that he will come, and that he remembereth every creature of his creating, he will make himself manifest unto all. Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.
(10) Alma 42:15 And now the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.
(11) Hela 8:22-23 Our father Lehi was driven out of Jerusalem because he testified of these things, and also almost all of our fathers, even down to this time; yea, they have testified of the coming of Christ, and have looked forward, and have rejoiced in his day which is to come. And behold, he is God, and he is with them, and he did manifest himself unto them, that they were redeemed by him; and they gave unto him glory, because of that which is to come.
(12) 3 Ne 9:15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.
(13) 3 Ne 11:14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.
(14) 3 Ne 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.
(15) Morm 3:21 And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the very God.
(16)Eth 2:12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.
(17) D&C 18:33 And I, Jesus Christ, your Lord and your God, have spoken it.
(18) D&C 19:1,4,15-20 I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world ... And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless ... Therefore I command you to repent - repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your suffering be sore - how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which sufferings caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit - and would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink - Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my spirit.
(19) D&C 34:1 My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer.
(20) D&C 35:1-2,8 Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever. I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one ... For I am God, and mine arm is not shortened; and I will show miracles, signs, and wonders, unto all those who believe on my name.
(21) D&C 38:1,3 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I AM, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made ... The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes; I am the same which spake, and the world was made, and all things came by me.
(22) D&C 45:1-3 Hearken, O ye people of my church, to whom the kingdom has been given; hearken ye and give ear to him who laid the foundation of the earth, who made the heavens and all the hosts thereof, and by whom all things were made which live, and move, and have a being. And again I say, hearken unto my voice, lest death shall overtake you; in an hour when ye think not the summer shall be past, and the harvest ended, and your souls not saved. Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him-
(23) D&C 66:13 Verily, thus saith the Lord your God, your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ. Amen.
(24) D&C 93:10 The worlds were made by him; men were made by him; all things were made by him, and through him, and of him.
It is a very interesting line the LDS walks, a very blurry one, which of course is by design.
You won't come out and admit being polytheistic to begin with, then hide the concepts in Trinitarian like words, running to mix in the godhead idea as needed in hopes of making safe harbor for the Smith “two personages” argument.
The one thing I have never seen is a clear cut simple explantion of how the words of the BOM as well as the very clearly stated idea that Father, Christ and the Holy spirit are separate and distinct, well, whatever they are alone, but all are god, and how that is not well on the road to the Trinity.
Either you believe in three gods in committee or you are Trinitarian.
As it is the BOM offers no clarity what so ever into its own doctrine, and indeed clouds the issues with contradiction and a miss mash of interchanged ideas.
No, I stand by my statement. My church has NEVER taught that women are inferior.
_________________________________________________
Edward...
You know that according to the mormon corporation, women dont measure up to men...
Whether for political expediency or just because of the bursted dam of information, the mormon corporation has now decided to lie about its sexist past just as it lies about its racist past up to 1978...
However the 180 years of documentation written by mormons say differently...
Unlike Christianity, mormons have a goddess but women are not respected...
If women had always been in leadership then your argument might be valid...
But women have NEVER been the prophet/president, a menber of the quorum of 12, a 70,
a stake president, a ward president, a bishop, a MTC president, teacher, a mission president...
No corporation would ignore their best people
Even in the mormopn after life, women are just to be used as sex objects by the mormon males “gods”...
and yet you attempt to tell us that women are higher esteemed than men, more righteous etc...
and still passed over for lesser men for leadership positions ...
Women have always been second class citizens in mormonism, bearly accepted other than as necessary sex partners ...
The ones with the sexual obsession were Joey Smith and Brigham young and their sort...
Joey had no trouble getting males to join his gang...he just offered them lots of women and ill gotten gains...
Many of his first “converts” were whore mongers, cutthroats and thieves justy like himself...
He had a horde of 5,000+ in his private Army...almost as many as the US Calvary at that time...(8,000)
But they were like a drug cartel, gathered for no good...and to protect Joey and kill and steal for him...
Women were treated like “molls” then...to be shared around by the gang members....and treated like dirt...
When a new women came to town Joey Smith and Brigham Young would get her alone in a room and indecently proposition her...when they tired of her they would pass her on...
And the attitude towards women has not changed today...
Mormon males salivate at the thought of their mormon after life where they think they will be “gods” with a harem of 72 virgins...
Obsession over sex ???
I’m not the one who accidently built a whole religion around his sexual obsession...and his low opinion of women...
That was Joey Smith...
And marriage for “time and eternity” in mormonism ???
No such thing...
The mormon male can has control over his wife’s eternity...
He can decide not to call her out of the grave and if so she doesnt get to go to the mormon afterlife with him and be part of his “worthy” harem...
If he’s not “worthy” himself, she doesnt get to go either whether or not she is worthy...
If she is worthy, and somehow gets to go, she can be taken off her less worthy husband and given to a complete stranger who is “worthy” to whom she must submitt sexually as his sex slave for eternity...
None of this is related to the treeatment of women who are held in high esteem...
This is the way the mormon corporation thinks of women...just as chattel...as objects, furniture to be used...
But in Christianity women are treated differently...
Jesus came to set women free from slavery and imprisonment of cults like mormonism...John 8:36
In Christianity women are equal with men...
Jesus died for male and female....and all of us have the same reward and place in Heaven...Galations 3:28
There is no sex in Heaven...no marriage...we are “as the angels are” Matthew 22:30
We will not be remote, on a planet somewhere, cut off from God...
We will be right in the throne room of God...worshipping the Lamb who is Jesus, the Word of God...
Jesus is God...God come in the flesh...
He is to be worshipped...mormons teach that Jesus is not to be worshipped...but the Christian Bible says diferent...Matthew 2:11, Matthew 8:2, Matthew 9:18, Matthew 12:8
And women will be right there with men...in Heaven worshipping the Lamb of God...
The basic fact that throughout the 19th century your apostles and prophets considered women/wives no different than cattle means that fundamentally your ABSOLUTE assertion that lds NEVER taught women to be inferior. Once polygamy faded away, that inferiority just found release in different outlet.
As I’ve pointed out repeatedly over the years; LDS doctrine is only what is found in our Scriptures and in official proclamations by the LDS leadership. The same things indubitably holds true in your church and in ALL OTHER churches.
Just because it may be written down (and there are a lot of things the LDS don't follow) doesn't mean the practice doesn't happen. APOSTLE McConkie stated ""woman's primary place is in the home, where she is to rear children and abide by the righteous counsel of her husband". At age twelve, boys become members of the Aaronic, or lesser priesthood, and at nineteen become eligible for the Melchezedek, or higher priesthood. Women are, of course, excluded from the priesthood. This practice in effect says that a woman's prepubescent son is more qualified to advise her than she is to advise him. But never inferior eh eddie.
And yet, I see strawmen and non sequiturs in most of your arguments. “outrageously egotistical and sexist”? That’s an argument without foundation. So today’s moral sensibilities are eternal truths and will not be viewed as naive and ignorant by our descendants hundreds of years from now?
Just like the eternal polygamy was until the prophet saw the 'light' eh. Since you are picking my “outrageously egotistical and sexist” out of context, lets put it back into context shall we. The whole quote is
To "think no more about taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." is outrageously egotistical and sexist.
So it is apparent that you are trying to weave a strawman NOW by changing your story to say it Kimball's "moral sensibilities" LOL, sorry eddie, save your time and stop digging.
What does usage of prescription drugs by women have to do with the belief they are treated as inferior? There are enough stresses in women’s lives, especially LDS women with the emphasis on taking time every month to visit and provide service to each other, to justify taking medication.
Sooooo, it is ok that LDS women ABUSE medications. Lets look into just what medications eddie. Studies in Utah show women leading men in depression by more than 2x. Utah #1 in the US in antidepressant-drug use, notably Prozac® and lds women are also 2x likely to be abusers. Womens choices are controlled by men - their entire life. She learns that she absolutely cannot enter the highest heavenly kingdom without a temple-married husband. She is totally dependent upon her husband because:
• Her husband will lead her by hand "through the veil" to celestial existence,
• Her role in heaven will be to continue forever bearing offspring for him as one of his wives.
• She knows there is no approved escape from this God-decreed, interminable destiny for females, because it is the system that existed for gods in pre-existent worlds prior to this earth, and will exist without end in the future for her, her husband-god and vast numbers of other gods.
As for using the word “never” - I use it when I’m absolutely certain of what I’m saying. I don’t pretend my church hasn’t changed some of its doctrines over the years - it has and I don’t find doctrinal modification to be fatal when it corrects a misperception.
License for intellectual dishonesty?
How come this passage doesn't make the cut?
D&C 132: 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
____________________________________________
D&C 132
Is that one connected to this...
“The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy... I heard the revelation on polygamy, and I believed it with all my heart … ‘Do you think that we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principle of polygamy?’ If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted.” ( Brigham Young, August 19th, 1866, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269)
It’s talking about the eternal marriage aspect of mormonism and being sealed as an essential part of becoming a god.
Here are the passages you’re probably referring to. Take special note in verse 64 that the women are subject to “destruction” if they fail to obey a priesthood holder who has “taught” them the power of the priesthood.
Women in mormonism either obey or are destroyed. Interesting god they have there. Yet, how many women disobeyed and were actually destroyed according to the “revelation” and scripture given, supposedly by god? I know of none. False prophecy given by a false prophet.
Doctrine and Covenants 132:
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
D&C 132 makes the claim that godhood is attainable, through eternal marriage. If polygamy was essential to “magnifying” and “glorifying” god, then they would all be sealed to their husbands so that they could attain godhood.
The way I read it is this; become a priesthood holder, marry your spouse and be sealed to her. Now you qualify to become a god. Next, polygamy is deemed essential to god, so now, in order to qualify for godhood, you must enter into polygamist marriages as well.
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132
We never viewed women as property, first owned by their father then by their husbands (which continues to this day in Islam, Sikhism, and Hinduism).
Your faiths own Doctrine and Covenants says the following:
Doctrine and Covenants 132:
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
Reconcile please....
How come this passage doesn't make the cut?
Milk before meat!
Perhaps because your question was on evidence we LDS use to support our belief Christ is God.
Adultery = bad.
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