Is it "Catholic" or "Roman Catholic?" <Vanity><Ecumenical>

[Gamecock]

So I have a question about terminology.

Some of our Catholic FRiends get upset when we Prods use the term Roman Catholic, insisting that the term is derogatory, insulting, etc.

What I would like to discuss is why do Catholics complain about the term Roman Catholic, when the term is in such wide use inside of the Catholic church?

Thoughts?

[narses]

Probably hadn't extricated himself far enough from one of the more pernicious traditions of the RC Church: its on again, off again anti-judaism and anti-semitism.

He got better - he extricated himself from many "traditions", like the prohibition against Bigamy, for example. The results of the Lutherian Schism are equally telling - the embrace of the modern "gay" movement being just one.

[boatbums]

Hey there caww. Ah, yes, the never-ending “war”. Funny how that works, most true Christians I know, no labels- just genuine faith - are perfectly willing to accept that some Roman Catholics ARE genuinely saved. There are a few (RCs) on FR that post and their love for the Lord is obvious, it just comes across in the very way they say things. I certainly don't get in a tizzy every time the “P” word is spat out, I understand that some people just need to feel superior. It's between them and God. My faith is too strong to ever be shaken by labels.

[boatbums]

It could be someone's auditioning for RM post. Jus' sayin'. :o)

[annalex]

Yet the letter teaches not to be anywhere near those who, like the Protestants, do not believe in the Eucharist and do not obey their bishops.

[caww]

I understand that some people just need to feel superior.

Is this likely one of the reasons the Reformation disturbed the catholic church years ago?...they were loosing control over the people? also they considered the break away as blasphemy?

(I see the break away from churches on the homosexual isssue and can perfectly understand...rather than repent they are Preaching and celebrating their sin. I could not attend such a church.)

It seems to me the catholic church was more and more drifting away from the central message of the gospel back then...pagan relics and worship of idols etc. The Priesthood etc. the indulgents and such, were becoming a burden and destraction from the initial teachings Christ taught.

My service today was on the Priesthood of Christ...very interesting the association made to the temple priests and their garments...He indeed is the last and only high Priest...so nice to hear the message today.

[Poe White Trash]

The results of the Lutherian Schism are equally telling - the embrace of the modern "gay" movement being just one.

I've read several reviews of Michael S. Rose's _Goodbye, Good Men_, and I don't think you can place the blame for the flaming queerness that infests US Catholic seminaries on Luther's doorstep. From Amazon.com, here's a...

Product Description

The story behind the crisis in the Catholic Church is far worse than you think...

Intimidation, Discrimination, Molestation, Rape, Sexual Promiscuity, and Cover-Ups -- That's What Going on Inside Many Catholic Seminaries Across the Country

As the controversy surrounding the Catholic Church deepens, many people are asking: How could this have happened? In a new book, Goodbye, Good Men, author Michael Rose presents shocking evidence that the root of the problem extends down to the very place where vocations to the priesthood germinate: the seminary. Rose, who over the course of two years interviewed some 125 seminarians representing fifty dioceses and twenty-two major seminaries, has uncovered a profound spiritual problem inside the seminaries and a sickness of untold proportions.

Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church exposes the deliberate infiltration by those who wish to change the doctrines, disciplines and mission of the Catholic Church. This radical subculture and its liberal mindset-one that accepts homosexuality and sexual promiscuity in many seminaries-threatens the future of the Catholic Church.

The gay subculture is so prominent at certain seminaries that they have earned nicknames such as: "Pink Palace" (St. Mary's Seminary in Baltimore), "Notre Flame" (Notre Dame Seminary in New Orleans), and "Theological Closet" (Theological College at the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC). At these and several other seminaries, Rose found shocking examples of how, time and time again, chaste heterosexual seminarians are dismissed as unfit for the priesthood, while promiscuous homosexuals, and even those who have harassed, molested, or even raped other seminarians, are protected or promoted.

For anyone who has asked how pedophiles or predatory homosexual priests could possibly have been tolerated-here is the answer, in the most explosive book on the Catholic Church in a generation.

Goodbye, Good Men

Looks like Catholic seminaries in the US are not just embracing the modern sodomite movement, they're literally in bed with it.

[Marysecretary]

Talking about Christ and how He and He alone saves us is not a slur against your church.

[Natural Law]

"Talking about Christ and how He and He alone saves us is not a slur against your church."

Again, without you ever having actually read the Catechism of the Catholic Church your statements about its positions are nothing more than wild-ass (Equus africanus) guesses. Salvation requires both faith and works. Christ's death and resurrection made possible our salvation, but we must choose to be saved and continually maintain that choice. How else can we fulfill the Beatitudes? In Matthew 16:24 Christ called upon us to take up our crosses and follow him.

So again I challenge you to actually learn the teachings of the Catholic Church BEFORE you attempt to slander it.

[Natural Law]

"Looks like Catholic seminaries in the US are not just embracing the modern sodomite movement, they're literally in bed with it."

Would you care to comment on the published reports by the institutions that provide malpractice insurance to Protestant Churches that sexual abuse by and among Protestant clergy is as much as five times more prevalent than among Catholic clergy?

[HarleyD]

I have just recently have some discussions with our Catholic friends that may shed some light on your question. They wish to make clear that the Pope is only one leg of the Catholic Church. There are apparently four other members including the Orthodox. See this post. The Pope acts as one of five "bishops", serving the Latin Church of the Catholic Church.

This does make one wonder, if the Pope is "infallible" why none of the others follow his lead? Of course I asked this question but did not get a response. See this post.

Also, I was told that even though the Pope is descendant from Peter, so are all the Patriarchs (see above post). So that does make one wonder what is exactly the big deal of being descendant from Peter?

Now, give this discussion on another thread, I think that I'm in a better position to answer your question on this thread. Since the Latin Church is one of five arms of the Catholic Church, it is inappropriate for Protestants to call Roman Catholics, "Catholics". The term "Catholic" would best suit the entire Church-not just the Latin Church. So to avoid confusion, I would recommend the correct term is either "Roman Catholic" or "Latin Catholics".

[RnMomof7]

I would recommend the correct term is either "Roman Catholic" or "Latin Catholics".

LOL LOL...That is exactly why Catholic churches in the US say "Roman Catholic" .. they spring from the Latin rite, remember they have a pope in Rome and used to have a Latin mass ( which is creeping back I hear)

[editor-surveyor]

"Would you care to comment on the published reports by the institutions that provide malpractice insurance to Protestant Churches that sexual abuse by and among Protestant clergy is as much as five times more prevalent than among Catholic clergy?"

I have to question your allegation! - I can find only six news stories relating to sexual abuse from protestant ministers, while it takes 22 pages to list the Catholic pedophiles alone. Where did you get your info?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I can find only six news stories relating to sexual abuse from protestant ministers, while it takes 22 pages to list the Catholic pedophiles alone.

Always worth repeating.

And the errors of Protestant ministers are generally with women in the congregation other than their wives. Whereas the errors of Roman Catholic priests usually involve under-age boys.

If we wonder why our current society seems so tolerant of homosexuality we know who, in great part, to thank.

[Poe White Trash]

Would you care to comment on the published reports by the institutions that provide malpractice insurance to Protestant Churches that sexual abuse by and among Protestant clergy is as much as five times more prevalent than among Catholic clergy?

On one level, I believe that child abuse is horrific and should be dealt with immediately and harshly wherever it occurs: whether the house of worship be Protestant, RC, Jewish or whatever.

Sins of the flesh and sins of violence -- sexual abuse combines both, at the least -- are a perennial problem whether or not you're RC or Protestant, and I find it as risible to lay the fault for it at Luther's (or the Reformation's) doorstep than it would be to part of some sort of Catholic Conspiracy (those nefarious Jesuits, no doubt...).

As for your 5:1 incidence statistic, I assume that it comes from this AP report in the NYT?

Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy

If your statistic does come this article, then I can see several immediate problems:

First: The article is talking about 260 reports a year of kids under 18 yrs of age being sexually assaulted by "members of the clergy, church staff members, volunteers or congregants." So, obviously the article's title is NOT accurate: more than just Protestant clergy are being identified as the source of complaints. This makes it impossible to arrive at a reasonable comparison with the number the article gives for the RC Church: 13 000 credible accusations against RC clergymen since 1950.

Second: However, for the sake of argument let's assume that the 260 reports/year all fall under the category of "sexual assault by clergyman." Let's see -- it's been 60 years since 1950, so 13 000 accusations over 60 years equals 13 000/60 equals roughly 216 cases per year for the RC Church. So, just as a first approximation (given the numbers in the article) your 5 to 1 figure appears not just highly innacurate, but drawn out of thin air. The ratio is in fact very close to 1:1, and if you factor in the fact that traditionally there have been at least twice as many Protestants as RCs in the US, then I would say the problem of sexual abuse is slightly greater for the RC Church.

Third: There are other problems with this report. BIG problems. As the article I linked to readily admits:

A.) "Brotherhood [Mutual Insurance Company] does not specify which victims are younger than 18, so it is impossible to accurately add that to the total cases." -- Well, that doesn't help us reach an accurate figure, does it?

B.) "The companies did not produce supporting documentation or a way to determine the reports’ credibility." -- This is more and more looking like just hot air by an unnamed AP reporter.

C.) "Reports of abuse do not mean guilt and do not necessarily result in financial awards, the companies said." -- OK, so now we are comparing 13 000 credible accusations against the RC Church with 260/yr (over 60 years that would make 15,600 cases) accusations against Protestant churches which may or may not be credible accusations.

So, in summary the article I linked to is riddled with caveats, and even if we ignore these problems and look at the numbers in the best possible light for the RC Church the ratio is almost 1:1, not 5:1, for cases of sexual abuse by clergy.

If you've got more detailed or accurate stats to prove your 5 to 1 claim, please provide them (with a link). However, as it stands I'd say your statement that "sexual abuse by and among Protestant clergy is as much as five times more prevalent than among Catholic clergy" is just another unsubstantiated statistic that pops up all to often in the Religion threads on FR.

BTW, would you care to comment on the Michael S. Rose book that I made reference to in my last post?

[Natural Law]

"As for your 5:1 incidence statistic, I assume that it comes from this AP report in the NYT?"

You assume wrong. There is a lot of information available if you just go looking for it.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/article07/child_sex_abuse_by_protestant_clergy.html

http://www.reformation.com/

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/marchweb-only/3-18-31.0.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy143.html

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_SBC_abuse.html

[narses]

I've read several reviews of Michael S. Rose's _Goodbye, Good Men_, and I don't think you can place the blame for the flaming queerness that infests US Catholic seminaries on Luther's doorstep. From Amazon.com, here's a...

You misunderstand, no one claims the Catholic Church has no sinners - far from it. The difference I point out is that the Lutheran Church now teaches that two men may be joined in "Holy Matrimony" against the clear laws of God. Such heresy has never and will never be Catholic.

[narses]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/article07/child_sex_abuse_by_protestant_clergy.html

http://www.reformation.com/

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/marchweb-only/3-18-31.0.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy143.html

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_SBC_abuse.html

[Natural Law]

Thanks, I was posting from my iPhone and am HTML limited there.

[Religion Moderator]

If another Freeper is upset by remarks about a third party they are antagonistic.

Judgmental remarks about Hitler may not upset anyone. Such remarks about religious authorities might upset some Freepers.

[narses]

So what denomination is yours?