Posted on 02/26/2010 1:08:31 AM PST by Gamecock
So I have a question about terminology.
Some of our Catholic FRiends get upset when we Prods use the term Roman Catholic, insisting that the term is derogatory, insulting, etc.
What I would like to discuss is why do Catholics complain about the term Roman Catholic, when the term is in such wide use inside of the Catholic church?
Thoughts?
I could go on and on, there are scores of cases where a Catholic agency of some sort self identifies itself as Roman Catholic.
So why the issue with the term Roman Catholic on FR?
I believe I used to drive by an Elizabeth Ann Seton Roman Catholic Church near Ocala, Florida. My own Catholic dad, grandparents, and aunts & uncles used to regularly refer to themselves as Roman Catholics. They were from Toronto.
Personally, I get upset when FRiends, of any religious persuasion, refer to me as a “Prod”.
Most likely, your answer lies in your intentions when you use the term. Some protestants consider the “Roman” part to be especially distasteful, in addition to disliking Catholicism in general, and that comes through when you say it, either in your tone or in your choice of phrasing.
I grew up being told we were Roman Catholic (born 1959).
What is a “Prod” ?
Prod->Proddie->Protestant
In the move toward ecumenism, Rome is leading the way, and if it can call itself The Universal Church, the likelihood of its beliefs being pre-eminent increases.
It’s “Mr. Roman Catholic” to you, sir.
Aw, how sweet.
Roman or Latin Rite Catholic is one rite within the Catholic Church.
This might help you out: http://www.mncuf.org/rites.htm
As you can see calling the Catholic Church “the Roman church” is technically incorrect and is often used as a derogatory to inflame. But it has come into common use to call the Catholic Church (the proper name) the Roman Catholic Church.
When discussing theological differences one who disbelieves what the Catholic Church teaches has disagreements with all the rites of the Catholic Church not just the Roman Rite, since they all attest to what the Magisterium teaches as Truth.
Why thank you!
My guess is that it has something to do with distinguishing Anglo Catholics (Anglicans, Church of England, Episcopalians) from Roman Catholics.
Roman Catholic or Latin Rite Catholic is only one of the rites of the Catholic Church (those under the See of Rome). So Catholic is more correct but Roman Catholic does not bother me, but it does leave out quite a few Catholics.
“Roman Catholic or Latin Rite Catholic is only one of the rites of the Catholic Church (those under the See of Rome). So Catholic is more correct but Roman Catholic does not bother me, but it does leave out quite a few Catholics.”
I ask because Protestants are criticized by many Catholics in that there are these divisions: Presbyterian, Methodist, Congregational, etc.
I often state my observation from having lived in several Asian countries where there ar Catholics that the Catholic Church is not so Catholic as it seems to want to present itself.
Since Catholicism in various regions of the world, it would appear, adopt into it localisms and regionalisms in religious matters, structure, who may be admitted and who is restricted, etc.
Many Catholics in Asia, for example, also keep Buddhist practices, along with sympbols of Buddhist deities on the same “god shelves” with figurines of Mary and Joseph, etc., to which all at the same time have incense burned to them, prayers made to them, etc. Many Catholics in the Philippines and in China still call the Buddhist Fengshui practitioners to help them design their buildings or decorate their houses according to ancient deep-rooted superstitions. Many still call for the lion/dragon dancers to drive away evil spirits (they say) when they move in to a new house or open a new business location. Mant still use fireworks not merely for celebration but for cleansing a place from unclean sppirits.
So, why aren’t Presbyterians, Methodists, Congregationalists, others, merely accepted as different “rites” of Protestantism as there are varying rites in Catholicism (some not even being under the See of Rome)?
Prior to WWII there was actually much more cooperation between the Protestant “denominations” in public evangelist crusades, and this even extended into somewhat later efforts such as the Billy Graham and other Crusades.
I am not an endorser of ecumenism, actually, as I don’t believe their should be human programs to pressure churches or denominations to unite, so I don’t want this post to express that I am suggesting this in the slightest.
I am not a NCC or WCC supporter or endorser at all.
I am merely making the point that whereas Protestants have their various denominations which have the capacitiy to work together, and often do (e.g. National Association of Evangelicals), as their are varying “rites” within “Catholicism,” where does the criticism against the Protestants (in this regard) stand?
It’s mostly terms like, “Romanist,” etc. that have a hate-filled history.
HOWEVER, the name of the communion is the Catholic Church. “Roman” is not in the official name and may refer to many different matters:
1. The Latin Patriarchate. By referring to the entire communion as “Roman,” there is an implicit denial of the universality of the Church, as if the Latin Patriarchate is in isolation, as if the Bishop of Rome is in disunity with the rest of the catholic Church.
2. Headquartered in Rome. The emphasis on “Roman” is often used by Protestants to connect the Catholic Church to the Whore Babylon. This fooled even Martin Luther who claimed to have visited the Vatican as the basis for his innumerable Satanic slanders: The Vatican is not in Rome; it’s across the river in the Vatican City, where the Bishop of Rome has served in exile form the city of worldly power.
3. Because of many duplicitous heretical movements, such as the Polish Catholic Church, the Old Catholic Church, the Ultrecht Catholic Church, etc., the Catholic Church in America frequently identifies itself as the Roman Catholic Church, to signify those individual congregations or diocese which are in faithful union with the Bishop of Rome. This is the reason for most of your exhibits. The qualifier shouldn’t be necessary.
4. Some very early Catholic writers refer to the Roman, Catholic Church. In this instance, the usage is to assert the unity and structural integrity of the Church hierarchy throughout the “Roman world,” which was viewed as synonymous with all of civilization. This is not a name, per se, and reflects a colloquial usage of “Roman,” despite the establishment of Catholic congregations far beyond the borders of Rome.
You wrote:
“Now I’m curious as to just how many “rites” there are within what is called “Catholic.” How many(?) and can they be named?”
There are 22 as far as I can remember, but I may be off by one or two. And yes, they can all be named. They are all listed - every years - in the Catholic almanac for instance and you can find the list on line.
“I ask because Protestants are criticized by many Catholics in that there are these divisions: Presbyterian, Methodist, Congregational, etc.”
Because you have divisions.
You wrote:
“Maybe it is like the Baptists dropping the word Baptist from the name of the church. They no longer want to use a word that has a negative connotation to many people.”
Actually Protestants invented the term “Roman Catholic Church” in the early modern era. We didn’t. Catholics merely referred to themselves as Catholics. If you don’t believe me you can look this up in the Oxford English Dictionary.
I don’t know why some Catholics might be upset but the term Roman Catholic does not encompass the full reality of the Catholic Church which is composed of many rites the largest of which is Roman. My friend is a Ruthenian or Byzantine Catholic; there are Maronite Catholics etc. The Church is Roman in a different sense in that it is part of the doctrine of the Church that all Catholic Churches are united with the Bishop of Rome as the Successor of Peter and the center of unity. This unity forms the Catholic Church.
There are four principal rites, Latin, Antiochan, and Alexandrian, and a variant of the Antiochan called the Byzantine.
The various rites are unified into one church, recognizing the doctrinal unity and perfection of the sacraments among each other. In the early church, there were various orders (”scripts”) of Mass, which were growing more dissimilar; the Latin Patriarchate had become so vast and diverse that priests familiar with one rite wouldn’t necessarily know how to properly perform the rite in another land. So, in the fifth century, Pope Gregory the Great established a uniform rite throughout the Latin Patriarchate, based on the most prevalent order at the time. Certain cities (i.e., Milan, Toledo) were permitted to retain their historical rites, and have to this day. But a Milano feels no qualm that a Gregorian parish isn’t “his church.” There are other slight cultural variations within rites; the Byzantine Rite includes Romanian, Greek, Melkite, Ruthenian, etc.
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