Posted on 01/08/2010 12:00:42 PM PST by Enought
Sometimes I have to laugh. The ELCA teaches that Jonah and the Whale is a myth intended for teaching a moral lesson. Really? The book of Jonah reads as if it is an actual historic event. It has details that would be un-necessary if it was a made up story. The city Jonah went to is Nineveh, which is an actual city in the world at that time. And to top it off, Jesus himself said it was an historic event! In Matthew 12:39-41, Jesus speaks, ". . .A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here." How can the ELCA say Jonah and the whale is a made up story if Jesus said it happened (just like he will rise again in three days)? Oh Yeah . . . they don't believe Jesus really said what is in the Bible, PLUS they don't really believe the Bible. Yeah, that's the kind of church I want to belong too. How about you? J
Fish...not a whale.
Maybe a whale, maybe not. I doubt the author had 20th/21st century evolutionary taxonomy in mind when he was writing.
Who cares about 21st Century taxonomy.
The hebrew had a word for “fish” and a word for “whale”. The word for “fish” was used.
In the ancient world the primary purpose of history was to teach, not lay out a perfectly accurate account of the way things actually happened at points in time. That is a more modern concept. Note that the Bible is not laid out like Shelby Foote’s “Civil War”, chronologically and loaded with specific detail. This is because this is not the purpose of the text.
If you want to continue being a child in the faith, keep believing that every story in the Bible is transparently literal. These stories are meant to draw you in to meditate upon them and their deeper significance.
Did you not read the article dinoparty? Jesus said it was a true account. Now if you want to call Jesus a “child in the faith” that is up to you.
This verse seems to describe your view of the Bible well. - Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools. Romans 1:22
It is a true account, in that it accurately reflects big “T” truth. This doesn’t necessarily mean that the superficial facts stated in the account actually happened exactly that way at a particular point in time. Jesus was repeating a gospel story; he wasn’t stating that there was actually a physical fish that swallowed a physical human being at an actual point in time. You don’t think that Jesus spoke in sybolic terms? What do you think a parable is? Why do you think he repeatedly stated “for those who have ears, hear”? Why do you think he said some things to disciples, and others to the masses? Why do you think he railed against casting pearls before swine?
The noun "fish" appears in some (but not many) versions of Matthew 12:40 due to sloppy translation. The Greek word Matthew attributed to Jesus in this passage was ketos. Jesus spoke that word no where else in Scripture. Jesus did speak of fish a boatload of times, but when he did, the Greek word ichthus was attributed to Him.
Both the Douay-Rheims and the King James Bibles translate ketos as whale. If you really doubt these translations, look up the word cetacia in any modern dictionary and see what its meaning and derivation are.
oops I said “gospel story” but meant “scriptural story”, just FTR
Oh. . . big truth, told through a lie. That Big “T” truth allows you liberals a lot of lea way to decide for yourselves what God is saying. You can even turn God saying homosexuality is a sin, into “its fine and dandy.” You are fooling yourself. Thinking you have a higher understanding on scripture and still claim so many things in the Bible did not happen. It’s like you were there when it happen. Let’s see, if history was made up to tell moral stories . . . maybe Jesus didn’t die and rise again (I mean, how can that happen?). Maybe all the stories of Jesus were made up and he never existed. Wow, I am really liking this view of scripture. Then I can make a religion about it and say all the things I want to say by manipulating “scripture.”
And yes I know Jesus spoke in parables and symbolic terms at times. But there are clear indications when he does. Seems to me if the liberal church doesn’t like something that is said, they claim higher “T” meaning.
Actually, there are very specific rules for textual interpretation of ancient texts. It is very traditional and very conservative. You should learn them.
You think my view leads to loosy-goosy interpretation? On the contrary ... I don’t cherry pick biblical quotations in order to support my pet cause like you literalists do. There is nothing more misleading than that practice.
You know that Jesus spoke of literal things AND he spoke figuratively in parables. Usually...pretty much, always,..he differentiated between them and explained the meaning of the parable after the story. Why do people go to such pains to deny there have been miraculous happenings throughout Scripture? Miracles still happen today! I’ve had unexplained “miraculous” things happen to me personally. God still works in the hearts and lives of his people.
Sunday morning to Saturday morning - 24 hours
Saturday morning to Friday morning - 24 hours
Friday morning to Thursday morning - 24 hours
He must have been crucified on that Wednesday afternoon. The soldiers went around to break the legs of those crucified so as to get the whole thing over with before the "sabbath". I guess that's why Friday is assumed to be the day he died, since Saturday is the sabbath. The numbers don't work out do they?
What some don't realize is that this was Passover time and there are other "Sabbaths" besides Saturday. Jesus was crucified on Wednesday and was buried that night. He was buried for three days and nights and was already risen when they came to anoint his body on Sunday morning. Does anyone know WHY it is assumed Jesus died on a Friday? Is it just "tradition"?
There is nothing more misleading than to deny the actual biblical authors (I include God in that) statements and make up your own “T” truth.
I don't buy that for a second. "Inasmuch as many have taken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the begining were eyewitness and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught." (Luke 1:1-4)
Luke was doing your "modern concept" 2000 years ago and it was an ancient art when he took it up. There's a reason Jonah is the only book of the prophets written completely in narrative, as historic narrative. It is relayed as fact. And Jesus confirmed this, as noted in the OP. If you want to turn scripture into an rhorshach test, so be it. But as for me and my house, we'll take the Savior at his word. Finitum non capax infinitum.
You will take the Savior at his word? How are you confident that you understand the word? Jesus could have been a lot clearer and straightforward if he wanted to be, but instead, He, in his infinite wisdom, was much more subtle and mysterious. What word was he conveying when he wrote in the sand when the woman was to be stoned? Which word of Jesus do you believe — that Lazarus was dead or that he was asleep? Why did Jesus speak in parables when he could have just come out and said what he meant in a straightforward way? Why do only some have “ears to hear”? Who are the swine that should not be fed pearls? Does eternal life refer only to the life after physical death, or does it have a fuller meaning? Seems to me you are the type that wants to focus on the simple literal interpretation while disregarding the more mysterious words.
By the way, do you believe that Augustine was a good Christian writer? Or do you believe he is just misled like me? If the former, I have some citations for you. If the latter, then I’d suggest you consider whether you might need to humble yourself a bit.
Saint Augustine, early revered father of the Church, a “Rohrshash tester”?
See e.g. his Confessions, Book Six, 6.5.8.
Oh I'm well aware of what Augustine said about the preaching of Ambrose in this regard, that the legalism of the law and prophets should not necessarily be taken literally. Especially the part where he said "whether what he said was true or not, I still do not know". And if one man's spritual interpretation to certain scripture shocked Augustine out of his devotion to the anti-Christian neoplatonic teachings of Plotonus, so much the better. Yet, this passage of Augustine, nor any other, lends any support for disregarding the plain meaning of narrative text confirmed by Christ.
I suggest you continue your study of Augustine. When you get to book 16 of "City of God" you will find his complete acceptance of the literal words of Jonah. "The prophet Jonah, not so much by speech as by his own painful experience, prophesied Christ's death and resurrection much more clearly than if he had proclaimed them with his voice. For why was he taken into the whale's belly and restored on the third day, but that he might be a sign Christ should return from the depths of hell on the third day?"
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