Ain't. Ain't. Ain't.
First, there is no period of "deliberation" by God because that would imply there is a moment when God does not know the future, does not ordain the future and/or does not have control of the future. All of which denies the omniscience of God.
Second, the doctrine of election is grounded by the reality of total depravity (total inability.) Unless and until God regenerates the fallen sinner from a natural man to a spiritual man that man will remain lost and condemned in his sins.
So unless and until God acts decisively and personally by giving the free gift of the Holy Spirit, according to God's own purpose, determined from before the foundation of the world, no man can or will choose righteousness.
Therefore it's God who determines which fallen men, all equally fallen and lost in trespass, will receive His grace through saving faith in his Son's work on the cross.
Salvation has absolutely nothing to do with "foreseen" anything. If it did, men would have reason to boast because of what they've done. And so salvation would be according to debt and not free mercy.
Most of us grew up being taught some version of Arminianism. It's the natural inclination of men to want to take credit. Name above the title. But God names his family; we don't. And He names them according to His good pleasure and not as payback for something "good" they freely choose to do.
What could be more clear than 1 Corin. 4:7 and Romans 9:11?
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corin. 4:7
Who makes us different from one another? How can a man who is born to a comfortable, American family with love and education and opportunity possibly say he has the same "free will choice to believe" as the wretchedly poor, unloved orphan who's raised on the streets and steals to feed himself?
God made us to differ. And God gives us everything we have, including a repentant heart, a renewed mind, a family, circumstances, disposition, opportunity and a saving faith.
So while God can choose the unfortunate orphan to bring to faith and leave the fortunate son of privilege in his sins, we surely can't be so naive as to think God has treated us equally or made the path to faith the same for all. At its heart, Arminianism is glorification of self and a denial of the real world we live in.
All men are fallen and none, rich or poor, seeks His face unless He first reveals Himself to them. His call alone.
And the man to whom God reveals His Son will be brought to saving faith because God does not lack for anything, and the Holy Spirit does not fail, not ever, if the Trinity is true.
"All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him." -- Luke 10:22
Dr E “Second, the doctrine of election is grounded by the reality of total depravity (total inability.) Unless and until God regenerates the fallen sinner from a natural man to a spiritual man that man will remain lost and condemned in his sins. / So unless and until God acts decisively and personally by giving the free gift of the Holy Spirit, according to God’s own purpose, determined from before the foundation of the world, no man can or will choose righteousness.”
It would be more impressive if you could back that assertion up with scripture. You are not only claiming that all aspects of man has fallen, that there is none righteous and none who seeks God, but that we must be born again before “man can or will choose righteousness”.
I understand your assertion, but you need to support it with God’s revelation.
For we read in Acts, “1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter.”
In verse 44, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they were born again.
Further, Ephesians 1 says, “13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
What is the order again, Dr E?
1) When you heard the word of truth (the gospel)
2) and believed in him,
3) you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
An Arminian would say God’s prevenient grace had brought them to sufficient knowledge that they could repent, believe, and receive the Holy Spirit.
I would point out God has given at least some revelation to everyone (Rom 1). That is why men are responsible for their actions.
Think of Cain. He was a murdering rebel against God, and yet God spoke to him and warned him of the consequences of sin. Cain rejected God, but he DID interact with God:
“The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.” 8 Cain spoke to Abel his brother. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him. 9Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” He said, “I do not know; am I my brother’s keeper?” - Gen 4
Please explain to me why these men, prior to or without conversion, were able to interact with God, if that is not possible without being born again first.
Dr E “Most of us grew up being taught some version of Arminianism. It’s the natural inclination of men to want to take credit.”
Except that Arminians are NOT taking any credit. None on this side are boasting about what fine fellows we were, or are.
Dr E “But God names his family; we don’t. And He names them according to His good pleasure and not as payback for something “good” they freely choose to do.”
Scripture, please. I can flood you with scripture telling us to repent or else, to believe or else, that we are saved by grace THRU faith.
So where are the scriptures telling us God mad a list of names, and checks them off? That is not election, Dr E!
It COULD be election, if that were the means God chose. Or God COULD chose to save those who believe. Either one COULD fit the verses on election. But only one fits the hundreds of verses about believing.
Please explain these verses:
“30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” - Acts 16
Here is what Calvin said (would that he had taught likewise in his systematic theology!):
30. Sirs, what must I do? He doth so ask counsel, that he showeth therewith that he will be obedient. By this we see that he was thoroughly touched, so that he was ready to do what they should command him, whom not many hours before he had bound uncourteously. The wicked oftentimes when they see wonders, though they tremble for a time, yet are they straightway made more obstinate, as it befell Pharaoh, (Exodus 8:8, 32;) at least they are not so tamed that they give over themselves to God. But in this place the keeper (acknowledging the power of God) was not only a little afraid, so that he returned straightway unto his former cruelty, but he showeth himself obedient to God, and desirous of sound and wholesome doctrine. He demandeth how he may obtain salvation; whereby it appeareth more plainly that he was not suddenly taken with some light fear of God only, but truly humbled to offer himself to be a scholar to his ministers. He knew that they were cast in prison for no other cause, save only because they did overthrow the common estate of religion. Now he is ready to hear their doctrine which he had before contemned.
31. Believe in the Lord Jesus. This is but a short, and, to look to, a cold and hungry definition of salvation, and yet it is perfect to believe in Christ. For Christ alone hath all the parts of blessedness and eternal life included in him, which he offereth to us by the gospel; and by faith we receive them, as I have declared, (Acts 15:9.) And here we must note two things; first, that Christ is the mark whereat faith must aim; and, therefore, men’s minds do nothing else but wander when they turn aside from him. Therefore, no marvel if all the divinity of Popery be nothing else but an huge lump and horrible labyrinth; because, neglecting Christ, they flatter themselves in vain and frivolous speculations. [Pot. Kettle.]Secondly, we must note, that after we have embraced Christ by faith, that alone is sufficient to salvation. But the latter member, which Luke addeth by and by, doth better express the nature of faith, Paul and Silas command the keeper of the prison to believe in the Son of God. Do they precisely stay in this voice only? Yea, it followeth in Luke, in the text, that they preached the word of the Lord. Therefore, we see how the faith is not a light or dry opinion concerning unknown things, but a plain and distinct knowledge of Christ conceived out of the gospel. Again, if the preaching of the gospel be absent, there shall no faith remain any longer. To conclude, Luke coupleth faith with preaching and doctrine; and after that he hath briefly spoke of faith, he doth, by way of exposition, show the true and lawful way of believing. Therefore, instead of that invention of entangled faith, whereof the Papists babble, let us hold faith unfolded in the word of God, that it may unfold to us the power of Christ.”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom37.iv.vi.html
Dr E “What could be more clear than 1 Corin. 4:7 and Romans 9:11?”
Both are clear enough, but they do not support the idea that we must be born again to believe, or that we are saved as names on a list.
1 Corinth 4:7 Paul is defending his ministry, and he writes:
“6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. 7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it? 8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you!”
From Barnes:
“Verse 7. For who maketh, etc. This verse contains a reason for what Paul had just said; and the reason is, that all that any of them possessed had been derived from God, and no endowments whatever, which they had, could be laid as the foundation for self-congratulation and boasting. The apostle here doubtless has in his eye the teachers in the church of Corinth, and intends to show them that there was no occasion of pride or to assume pre-eminence. As all that they possessed had been given of God, it could not be the occasion of boasting or self-confidence.”
Truly spoken, and in total accord with Arminian and myself. If God doesn’t seek us, and reach down to us, there is nothing. And God will give to us in different measure, according to his will.
But that doesn’t say we are saved as names on a list, does it...
Romans 9 needs to be read IN CONTEXT. It is addressing, not salvation of individuals, but of the election of Israel as a people chosen to inherit the promise to Abraham.
“10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Why did God choose to fulfill the promise thru the line of Jacob rather than Esau? We don’t know. But it is worth remembering that the quote “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” comes, not from Genesis, but from Malachi (The Italian Prophet, if pronounced the ‘right’ way). It doesn’t address Jacob as an individual, or Esau as an individual, but of the nations they fathered.
So when you take a verse on election here or there in Romans 9-11 and apply it to individual salvation, you are taking it out of context.
Are the Jews still the inheritors of the promise? Even though they have largely rejected Jesus and Gentiles are flooding the church?
Paul answers with a resounding “Yes!” And praise God, he is right! But he is not addressing the salvation of individuals, for he addressed that in Chapter 3:
“21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.”
Dr E “So while God can choose the unfortunate orphan to bring to faith and leave the fortunate son of privilege in his sins, we surely can’t be so naive as to think God has treated us equally or made the path to faith the same for all. At its heart, Arminianism is glorification of self and a denial of the real world we live in.”
Perhaps you should read Jacobus Arminius before pretending to know about it. Arminius (and I) said that God gives his grace in unequal measure, for his own reasons. But as Paul says, all have received enough to be without excuse on Judgment Day.
Ephesians 1:11 is perhaps the clearest expression of the concept of the sovereignty of God, though there are other verses that teach the sovereignty of God (Ps 115:3; Prov 16:9, 33; Dan 4:34-35). In verse 11 Paul continues the theme of God’s predestining us in Christ for salvation. Paul says that such a marking off of the believer beforehand was done “according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will.” The clause beginning with “who” is a relative clause modifying him. According to this verse, believers are predestined to salvation in accord with the purpose of God, and God does all things, including predestining to salvation, according to the counsel of his will. The clause, then, broadens the scope of the verse to speak of God’s sovereign control not only over election to salvation, but over all else.As to the phrase according to the counsel of his will, the distinction between “counsel” and “will” is that the former involves purpose and deliberation while the latter simply denotes willing. The basic thrust of the phrase is that God chooses after deliberating on the wisest course of action to accomplish his purpose. Thus, this verse refers to a plan resulting from deliberation. This verse, then, indicates that what occurs is foreordained by God, and nothing external to God such as the foreseen actions or merits of God’s creatures determines his choices. God deliberates, chooses and accomplishes all things on the basis of his purposes. How does God accomplish all things? Some are done directly and exclusively by God without use of other agents, but most are accomplished through the agency of others (humans, angels, donkeys, etc.).
Clearly, this verse teaches the absolute sovereignty of God. Just as clearly, with such a notion of sovereignty, there is no room for indeterministic freedom. Given indeterministic freedom, God cannot guarantee that what he decides will be carried out. No matter how much God inclines someone’s will toward what he has chosen, such inclination, on an indeterministic account of freedom, can never be sufficient to produce God’s decreed action. Given indeterminism, there is no way for God to be in control of the world as outlined in Ephesians 1:11