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To: Mr Rogers; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg

“Odd...that sounds like predestination!”

Perhaps that is why you don’t understand the concept.


6,750 posted on 01/27/2010 12:18:24 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg

It isn’t understanding I lack, but scriptural evidence of Calvinism. The Westminster Confession says, “VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.”

Now, what one does or does not do in becoming a Christian seems like the clearest example of “things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation”, and so it ought to be taught clearly enough and with sufficient repetition to ensure “the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.”

“Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1

“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” - John 3

“Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. “ - Acts 16

“For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.” - Romans 3

All that seems pretty clear & explicit - enough that Luther’s milkmaid could be saved.

But you would take this verse “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him...In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.”

and have me overturn the clear meaning of hundreds to say scripture REALLY teaches that God saves men on a list, and damns the rest, and preaches repentance and believing...because he is a liar? So he can mock our helplessness?

Why would God give us hundreds of verses about believing and having faith, if we are saved by election? If faith and belief are gifts he gives to those on his list, why doesn’t he say so?

Jesus may have taught in parables, but I had never heard him called a liar before. Yet that is what he is, if he commands men to repent when he knows it is impossible for them to repent, or not repent - all according to a list.

Where is the scripture for your side?

I would rather interpret 6 “hard verses” in the light of 500 explicit ones, than interpret 500 “hard verses” in light of 6 explicit ones...


6,752 posted on 01/27/2010 1:10:57 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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