It isn’t understanding I lack, but scriptural evidence of Calvinism. The Westminster Confession says, “VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.”
Now, what one does or does not do in becoming a Christian seems like the clearest example of “things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation”, and so it ought to be taught clearly enough and with sufficient repetition to ensure “the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.”
“Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” - John 3
“Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. “ - Acts 16
“For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.” - Romans 3
All that seems pretty clear & explicit - enough that Luther’s milkmaid could be saved.
But you would take this verse “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him...In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.”
and have me overturn the clear meaning of hundreds to say scripture REALLY teaches that God saves men on a list, and damns the rest, and preaches repentance and believing...because he is a liar? So he can mock our helplessness?
Why would God give us hundreds of verses about believing and having faith, if we are saved by election? If faith and belief are gifts he gives to those on his list, why doesn’t he say so?
Jesus may have taught in parables, but I had never heard him called a liar before. Yet that is what he is, if he commands men to repent when he knows it is impossible for them to repent, or not repent - all according to a list.
Where is the scripture for your side?
I would rather interpret 6 “hard verses” in the light of 500 explicit ones, than interpret 500 “hard verses” in light of 6 explicit ones...
To be honest I think you have OVER studied..
.Our faith is not an intellectual pursuit it is a spiritual one... Scripture tells us the the cross is foolishness to the perishing, it does not matter how much they study they will not get it. In some ways that is also true for us.. I,like you, argued against Calvinism for months.. right here on this forum. The Calvinists were pulling their hair out at me.. then one day as I sat to read my scriptures for the day...It jumped off the pages at me.. The intellectual arguments did not move me, the debate did not move me, trading scripture quotes did not move me...but on that day the Holy Spirit did.
We can not intellectually understand something like election,it is against everything we ever learned about independence and freedom .
We want to believe we wanted God, somehow that desire will make us dearer to Him... But God’s word says no one wants Him, no one looks for Him, that He will have mercy on who He wants to have mercy.. That just does not mesh to what we think we know about God
I know I did fall on my knees because I wanted to, I needed to.. but I also know I did not initiate the events that brought me there...
God was the 1st cause.
So please put aside the intellect and the Calvinist /Arminian debate and defend the gospel and let God speak to you in his word as you study.
If he so ordains I believe you will see it.. if not He continues to use you where you are.
This is not an issue of salvation it is a matter of doctrine on the glory of God..
BTW Did you know the original Mr Rogers was a Presbyterian minister??
Now, what one does or does not do in becoming a Christian seems like the clearest example of “things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation”, and so it ought to be taught clearly enough and with sufficient repetition to ensure “the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.”
Yes, that's right, AND this discussion between Arminianism and Calvinism does not offend this section of the WCF at all. What is that necessary thing that must be believed for salvation? Well, it is that one must believe to be saved, and we all agree on that. You aren't going to hell because you're an Arminian and we're not either for being Calvinists. Scripture is plain enough that faith is required.
What we are arguing about is how that faith comes into being. Who gets the blue ribbon? Is it man for being so wise as to snatch up what is literally the opportunity of a lifetime, or does the blue ribbon go to God for purposely bringing His beloved children unto Himself without risk of losing a single one? If man deserves the blue ribbon, then by definition God doesn't care which of the men won it. He threw away His right to choose. But if God deserves the blue ribbon then we know He cared immeasurably for those He individually saved fully and by His own power alone.
Why would God give us hundreds of verses about believing and having faith, if we are saved by election?
Election is the in/out decision by God. That decision must be implemented by the power of God. That predestination includes the happening of faith within time. So, we would expect many verses talking about believing and faith in His communications to us. The elect WILL believe so all information we can get about that is useful to the elect.
If faith and belief are gifts he gives to those on his list, why doesn’t he say so?
We say He does say so and you disagree, which is fine.