Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
A poem is not a textbook. The Bible, as you say, is also not a textbook, and it should not be read as one.
The commonality, though, is that the rules of the language determin the initial understanding of the message in the scribblings put down on the page.
It's a pity so many Christians miss this merciful awareness of who they actually are in God's universe - set apart from "before they could choose to do anything good or evil;" then "made acceptable" to God by Christ for His glory alone.
Thus there is no boasting. There is only "there but for the grace of God go I." Without Him.
While this thread has experienced some ennui, the original question asked at the beginning, has been answered at least in part in another thread on this site by a recognizable Catholic poster.
I don’t hate Catholics of course, I recognize them as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ with some errant doctrinal viewpoints. But that is natural.
I'm not contesting this, xzins. :^) You need to know the rules of language — its syntax — in order to understand its message — its semantics. But semantics does not "reduce" to syntax.
‘Nowhere do we read, “Be born again, if God chooses, then accept the gift of faith and believe”. One would think, if that were true, that SOMEWHERE in 450 verses it would be mentioned!’
Point 1
Ephesians 1:3-6 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:”
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
“Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
“To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”
Thus God chooses, or elects His saved.
Point 2
Ephesians 2:5 “But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.”
Thus, regeneration must precede faith. Dead men cannot cooperate in the process.
None of the discussion involves the question, “Is God sovereign?” God in His sovereign will could decide to save a list of names. God, in His sovereign will, could decide to save those who believe. If I decide to give my horse a choice, it is MY decision to do so.
BD “According to this verse, believers are predestined to salvation in accord with the purpose of God, and God does all things, including predestining to salvation, according to the counsel of his will.”
“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” - ESV, not NIV
Yes. Salvation takes place IAW the purpose of God, according to the counsel of his will. What is predestination, in scripture?
Since it is mentioned 6 times in 6 verses, let’s look at them all...in the ESV:
Act 4:28 “to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
1Cr 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
And 1 Cor 2:7 seems to be explained by verses 9-10:
“But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— 10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit.”
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
So we have “predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
“he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ”
“we have obtained an inheritance”
“what God has prepared for those who love him”
I think Romans 8 summarizes what predestination means pretty well - to be conformed to Jesus as a son of God. That is our end - our destination. We ARE pre-destination-ed.
But does God in his sovereign will and to fulfill his purpose, pick those people off a list, or does he chose to take those who believe?
Well, hundreds of verses say believe. What must I do to be saved?
“31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family.” - Acts 16
Not, ‘How dare you deny the sovereignty of God! He and He alone will decide if He will save you...you just wait and see!’
Not, ‘If God saves you, you will believe’.
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
I don’t know how God can make it any clearer than that. Nor do I know why Calvin wants to order God to do it differently. God “accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will” - His will, not Calvin’s. And he has repeated himself hundreds of times: Repent! Believe! Your faith has healed you!
BD “Just as clearly, with such a notion of sovereignty, there is no room for indeterministic freedom. Given indeterministic freedom, God cannot guarantee that what he decides will be carried out.”
I don’t know what indeterministic freedom means, but I know what God has said: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
THAT is God’s will. As it says in the passage of Ephesians you quoted, “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
When you heard the word of truth, the gospel
and believed in him
you were sealed with the Holy Spirit
who guarantees our inheritance
to the praise of God’s glory.
Point 1: see post 6746.
Point 2: We are described as dead in our sin. We are also described as slaves of sin, servants of sin, children of wrath, blind, and sick. Of the terms I’ve seen so far that describe how we were before salvation, 1 of 6 has us incapable of responding to God’s revelation in grace. 5 of 6 have us capable.
Can a slave respond to an offer of freedom?
When Jesus healed the sick or blind, how did he put it?
Mat 9:2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.
“I don’t know what indeterministic freedom means”
It means that choices are random; made by chance, without cause or reason, i.e. “free will”.
“It means that choices are random; made by chance, without cause or reason”
Odd...that sounds like predestination!
“Odd...that sounds like predestination!”
Perhaps that is why you don’t understand the concept.
- sometime I wonder if there is a dog.
I thought it was the "dyslexic, insomniac, atheist" that laid in bed at night wondering that. ;o)
It isn’t understanding I lack, but scriptural evidence of Calvinism. The Westminster Confession says, “VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.”
Now, what one does or does not do in becoming a Christian seems like the clearest example of “things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation”, and so it ought to be taught clearly enough and with sufficient repetition to ensure “the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.”
“Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” - John 3
“Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. “ - Acts 16
“For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.” - Romans 3
All that seems pretty clear & explicit - enough that Luther’s milkmaid could be saved.
But you would take this verse “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him...In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.”
and have me overturn the clear meaning of hundreds to say scripture REALLY teaches that God saves men on a list, and damns the rest, and preaches repentance and believing...because he is a liar? So he can mock our helplessness?
Why would God give us hundreds of verses about believing and having faith, if we are saved by election? If faith and belief are gifts he gives to those on his list, why doesn’t he say so?
Jesus may have taught in parables, but I had never heard him called a liar before. Yet that is what he is, if he commands men to repent when he knows it is impossible for them to repent, or not repent - all according to a list.
Where is the scripture for your side?
I would rather interpret 6 “hard verses” in the light of 500 explicit ones, than interpret 500 “hard verses” in light of 6 explicit ones...
To me this is a fascinating subject and I am VERY interested that so many on the reform side insist that freedom of will is "indeterministic" (IF, and it's a big if, I'm understanding you.)
Your description of the trinity is Mormon ...
I don't agree with the rules you set down for discourse, so I've excused myself. No offense, I just don't see it going anywhere useful.
That is the published translation , because she is a "saint" I can assume the church took as much time with that translation as it did with scripture..
So I can be confident it is an accurate translation right?
That wasn't my reason for writing, sister. I was simply affirming the importance of the normal means of reading any text.
The purpose of God is more than “ just the goal” of salvation. The Greek word prothesin speaks of the purpose or goal God intends to accomplish. According to Eph 1:11, purpose relates to his predestining to salvation, and surely to everything else as well. In the overall context of Ephesians 1 as well as in verse 11 it would be hard to sustain the view that God chooses all things according to deliberation but only has a purpose in regard to his choices to salvation. The clause, broadens the scope of the verse to speak of God’s sovereign control not only over election to salvation, but over all else.
According to this verse, believers are predestined to salvation in accord with the purpose of God, and God does all things, including predestining to salvation, according to the counsel of his will. God deliberates, chooses and accomplishes all things on the basis of his purposes. Eph 1:11 then, indicates that what occurs is foreordained by God, and nothing external to God such as the foreseen actions or merits of God’s creatures determines his choices.
That is what we are to judge the spirit of by the word of God. Anybody can claim they had a vision, but if that vision starts telling them things that are unscriptural, you have to question the source.
Exactly !
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