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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Cronos; 1000 silverlings

“Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius (AD 354 – AD 420/440)...It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special Divine aid. Thus, Adam’s sin was “to set a bad example” for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism

Arminianism holds to the following tenets:

* Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation (see also prevenient grace).
* Salvation is possible only by God’s grace, which cannot be merited.
* No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.
* God’s election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
* Christ’s atonement was made on behalf of all people.
* God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.
* Believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace through persistent, unrepented-of sin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

No, they are not the same. Pelagius taught that a man could be good enough to be perfect on his own ability and power. It is not only heresy, but utter foolishness. Sorry, but I’ve known too many people to be a Pelagian.

“And “prevenient grace” is a cop-out not taught in Scripture. God either saves his children completely, according to His good pleasure and purpose, or men save themselves by their prudent free will decision to believe, which leaves God in debt to men for their response.”

In scripture, grace is called grace. And grace is revealed when God doesn’t destroy us as we deserve, but reveals himself to man. Paul says no man has an excuse, because God has revealed enough about himself to every man that no man can justify his sin. “For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”

But grace sometimes does result in repentance and salvation. When it does, Arminian called it ‘prevenient grace’. It differs from Calvin’s teaching in that it is not ‘irresistible’, and in that it’s purpose is not to make the choice for us, but to make the choice possible.

If a man accepts God’s gift, prevenient grace is saving grace. If a man rejects God and hardens his heart to the Holy Spirit, it becomes damning grace, since the damned man will have no excuse.

That man can and does resist God’s will is excruciatingly obvious in scripture and in life. Have I, since my conversion, resisted God’s will and hardened my heart against God? Far too often - every time I sin, I refuse God’s will.

Does God speak to us and reveal himself to us before conversion? Of course. He did to Cain, and Cain refused. He did to Cornelius, and Cornelius accepted what God gave to him - and then God gave him more. And those who harden risk losing all:

“Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“’You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’” - Matt 13

It doesn’t START with God denying them, but when they reject what God HAS given them, he takes even that away.

But notice, God doesn’t LIE to people. God’s word remains true. He withholds it from some (”For this people’s heart has grown dull...and their eyes they have closed”), but he doesn’t deceive them. He doesn’t say, “For God so loved the world” when he means “God so loved the elect”. He doesn’t look at the rich young ruler and hate him...it says Jesus LOVED him. He doesn’t say faith saves us, when election does.

I’ll also point out the idea of a limited atonement misses the point of the sacrifice of Jesus. God doesn’t total up the demerits of the sins of the elect, have it work out to - 4,315,000,523 demerits, and then happily find that the sacrifice of Jesus works out to 4,315,000,523 merits.

No. God is infinite. The sacrifice of Jesus - God - was infinite. No matter how much one has sinned, Jesus has it covered. It was enough to cover all the sins of the world, and 10,000 worlds more, if need be. There is no limit on the atonement made by infinite God. Infinity divided by 10,000,000,000 is still infinity. No matter how many times you dip a bucket into the river, the flow is not reduced.

What are we charged to do? “Believe in him whom he has sent”.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” — Jesus

Jesus told that to “a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews”. Pharisee comes from ‘perushim’ - set apart. Nicodemus thought he was already Chosen, and Set Apart for God. Not only were the Jews God’s Chosen People, but Pharisees were God’s Chosen Jews.

So here was a man chosen from the chosen...and Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit....For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.”

Jesus gave Nicodemus a rhetorical slap in the face - or kick between the legs. It was a specific rejection of Nicodemus the Pharisee and the Jews as chosen. “Whoever believes...in order that the world might be saved”.

“Whoever” and “world” leave no room for boasting. It isn’t because we are special, and it isn’t because we’ve earned squat - whoever/world leave no doubt that the individual hasn’t earned anything.

But if he came “in order that the world might be saved”, his purpose isn’t limited to a list of names. And those who believe are then set aside for a new purpose, to be conformed to Jesus.


5,156 posted on 01/20/2010 9:09:02 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
But if he came “in order that the world might be saved”, his purpose isn’t limited to a list of names. And those who believe are then set aside for a new purpose, to be conformed to Jesus.

Excellent post.

John 3:16 is among the best known verses of the New Testament and two words in it are critical. First, Jesus Christ makes it clear that He was sent because of God's love for the WORLD, not a select group, the entire world. Secondly, Jesus Christ makes it clear that salvation is for WHOEVER believes in Him, again not a select group, but ANYONE who believes. And keep in mind that believing in Jesus Christ is an act of HUMAN SELF WILL, it is not an act of God's Will.

5,159 posted on 01/20/2010 9:18:30 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Mr Rogers

I really enjoy your posts.


5,164 posted on 01/20/2010 9:30:40 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Mr Rogers
Does God give all men eyes to see and ears to hear? Do all men possess a new heart of flesh? Does God renew the minds of all men -- all to enable men to see, hear, love and know the things of God?

No.

Do men have to first ask for these things and then God gives them to them? Or does He first give men eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart of flesh and a renewed mind and then men are enabled to want the things of God?

The latter.

To mistake the order of salvation is to disrespect God's gift of grace and make it , even partially, your own doing, and as Owen says, "to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." -- Ezediel 36:26-27


"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." -- Matthew 11:27

This is why Arminianism is the road back to Rome. It is a works-based salvation, albeit without a lot of the fallderol. But it retains the greatest error of Rome -- that men save themselves by what they do and not by what Christ did, according to God's will, and not their own.
5,194 posted on 01/20/2010 10:08:46 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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