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To: Mr Rogers
Does God give all men eyes to see and ears to hear? Do all men possess a new heart of flesh? Does God renew the minds of all men -- all to enable men to see, hear, love and know the things of God?

No.

Do men have to first ask for these things and then God gives them to them? Or does He first give men eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart of flesh and a renewed mind and then men are enabled to want the things of God?

The latter.

To mistake the order of salvation is to disrespect God's gift of grace and make it , even partially, your own doing, and as Owen says, "to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." -- Ezediel 36:26-27


"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." -- Matthew 11:27

This is why Arminianism is the road back to Rome. It is a works-based salvation, albeit without a lot of the fallderol. But it retains the greatest error of Rome -- that men save themselves by what they do and not by what Christ did, according to God's will, and not their own.
5,194 posted on 01/20/2010 10:08:46 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
But it retains the greatest error of Rome -- that men save themselves by what they do and not by what Christ did...

This is not a teaching of the Catholic Church.

Of course, you do not claim it is.

5,197 posted on 01/20/2010 10:10:33 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
...works-based salvation...

This is not a teaching of the Catholic Church.

Of course, you do not claim it is.

5,199 posted on 01/20/2010 10:11:42 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

“Does God give all men eyes to see and ears to hear? Do all men possess a new heart of flesh? Does God renew the minds of all men — all to enable men to see, hear, love and know the things of God?”

Does God give all men eyes to see and ears to hear?

“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them...So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.”

“Do all men possess a new heart of flesh?”

No. God said, “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you.” - Ez 36

The new heart follows justification. And how are we justified?

“For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”

Thus the two events were combined in one when God said, “Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!” - Ez 18

“Or does He first give men eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart of flesh and a renewed mind and then men are enabled to want the things of God?”

If we repent, and believe in the one He sent, then we are justified and God gives us a new heart. We die with Christ, that we might live with Him.

“We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” - Romans 6

But does everyone confronted by God repent? Not when Jesus confronted them. And not even when the Holy Spirit confronts believers, since we do sometimes harden our hearts and resist the Holy Spirit.

No man seeks God, but God seeks us. And what happens?

“Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” - Acts 2

When were they cut to the heart? Was it BEFORE or AFTER they were saved? Since they were cut to the heart and THEN asked ‘what shall we do’, I’d have to say they SAW their need prior to rebirth. When Philip met the Ethiopian, the Ethiopian asked for help. The Ethiopian recognized his need...but how? He hadn’t been given eyes to see or ears to hear. He was dead - how can a dead man ask for help?

Prevenient grace. Or God’s grace, given in unequal measure, but enough for the Ethiopian to recognize his need. The Ethiopian didn’t save himself, but he saw his need prior to salvation.

In Matt 11, Jesus said:

“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Man’s wisdom counts for nothing. It is God’s revelation. And what does Jesus say? “Come to me...” God reveals. We come...or not.


5,228 posted on 01/20/2010 10:59:23 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; Mr Rogers; Petronski
that men save themselves by what they do and not by what Christ did, according to God's will, and not their own.

Does the Orthodox Presbyterian group teach that??? Very strange. We Catholics believe the opposite, that Christ saved us. THe OPC doesn't seem quite correct, what with this and their worship of Machen.
5,336 posted on 01/20/2010 9:12:37 PM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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