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Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?
Me

Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: 1holyapostolicchurch; apostates; catholic; catholicbashing; catholicwhiners; devilworshippers; eckleburghers; greeks; heathen; orthodoxyistheone; papistcrybabies; proddiecatholic; robot; romanistispejorative; romanists; romanistwhinefest; romannamecallers; russians
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To: Petronski

Are the Machenites worshipping Saint Paul? I only ask because without his words they have NOTHING. I wonder if many of them would know the actual Gospels if they heard them.


5,141 posted on 01/20/2010 8:40:49 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Petronski

They’ll never, ever get it (which makes sense, they’re told not to) that if we REALLY did worship Old Mar and think her Goddess-like, well, maybe we would freakin’ ADMIT to it? Why would I constantly deny her status as goddess, or my worship of her? Wouldn’t I be infinitely more afraid of the wrath of my goddess denied, than of upsetting some internet guy posting klanish propaganda? Where’s the sense?


5,142 posted on 01/20/2010 8:41:52 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: esquirette
Asking if our choice is inside or outside of God’s will, is not analogous to asking if green is up. That is an illogical association. It presumes two questions. I have already set a clear predicate that establishes only one question.

Amazing! You have set a predicate! Can you put that in a Venn diagram for us?

5,143 posted on 01/20/2010 8:42:36 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa

The malignant machenoma is known to ravage the common-sense centers of the human brain. Mariophobic psychosis is a common symptom.


5,144 posted on 01/20/2010 8:43:50 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Gamecock

Uh, Gamecock, you said you were at this church, but you neglected to mention what people have to pass under to get to the altar. You have to pass through a rood screen UNDER A LARGE CRUCIFIX:

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2437186190084788910tvMOjP

Here’s another photo of it in fact: http://www.dkimages.com/discover/DKIMAGES/Discover/Home/Geography/Europe/Italy/Northeast-Italy/Venice/San-Polo-and-Santa-Croce/Churches/Santa-Maria-Gloriosa-dei-Frari/Rood-Screen/Rood-Screen-1.html

So, why did you not mention this fact if you were actually a visitor to the church and had first hand knowledge of it?

This is important because, over the centuries, during Mass, with the Church filled, what people would see is the Rood Screen and that crucifix. Every day, every Mass. The inner sanctuary would rarely be seen except when people went to pray - outside of Mass times - before the altar and that Marian painting.


5,145 posted on 01/20/2010 8:47:30 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Gamecock
You're quite welcome, dear brother in Christ!
5,146 posted on 01/20/2010 8:49:24 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Cronos
Thank you for your encouragement, dear brother in Christ!
5,147 posted on 01/20/2010 8:51:52 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Gamecock
Except ya'll will constantly bring Mary up during your worship,

Would you define "constantly," please?

How often do you attend Catholic worship? I go to Mass almost daily. Yesterday Mary was mentioned once in a 40 minute or so service.

Maybe "constantly" means something different in Geneva.

5,148 posted on 01/20/2010 8:56:05 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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Comment #5,149 Removed by Moderator

To: Hegewisch Dupa

You know what?

I love that humble woman, a beautiful example to me. It is my belief that she is the Queen Mother of the King of Glory, as much when she wore simple linen robes as when she was crowned in Heaven.

I know her as peaceful and merciful, pointing us always to her Son, Christ Jesus, risen Son of the Almighty I am.


5,150 posted on 01/20/2010 8:56:47 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: vladimir998; esquirette
Please show where Catholicism holds God is not sovreign.

If God permits freedom, in their thinking, He is not sovereign.

Strange but true.

5,151 posted on 01/20/2010 8:58:45 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Petronski

Eventually leads to a large air mass in the calvarium.


5,152 posted on 01/20/2010 9:02:54 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: vladimir998; Gamecock
Nice catch!

This is shameful. The earlier pictures are presented as what would be seen from the cheap seats, but seem actually to be taken from the entry to the chancel or sanctuary area (or framed that way). So this is a gross misrepresentation.

Any old stick to beat a Catholic, including a stick that doesn't exist. This is not the work of someone careful about the Truth.

5,153 posted on 01/20/2010 9:03:08 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
If God permits freedom, in their thinking, He is not sovereign.

That's not God, that's a petty, shabby god too insecure to create something with its own free will.

5,154 posted on 01/20/2010 9:04:32 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Mad Dawg; Gamecock

You wrote:

“The earlier pictures are presented as what would be seen from the cheap seats...So this is a gross misrepresentation.”

You’re absolutely right. Essentially what Gamecock has done is throw out most of the church interior’s design to suit his own ends. We shouldn’t be surprised, however. Anti-Catholics often resort to such gross misrepresentations: posting only partial quotes, phony photos, outright frauds, etc. It’s all in a day’s work for anti-Catholics who clearly don’t care about the truth.


5,155 posted on 01/20/2010 9:07:26 AM PST by vladimir998 (Part of the Vast Catholic Conspiracy (hat tip to Kells))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Cronos; 1000 silverlings

“Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius (AD 354 – AD 420/440)...It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special Divine aid. Thus, Adam’s sin was “to set a bad example” for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism

Arminianism holds to the following tenets:

* Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation (see also prevenient grace).
* Salvation is possible only by God’s grace, which cannot be merited.
* No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.
* God’s election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
* Christ’s atonement was made on behalf of all people.
* God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.
* Believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace through persistent, unrepented-of sin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

No, they are not the same. Pelagius taught that a man could be good enough to be perfect on his own ability and power. It is not only heresy, but utter foolishness. Sorry, but I’ve known too many people to be a Pelagian.

“And “prevenient grace” is a cop-out not taught in Scripture. God either saves his children completely, according to His good pleasure and purpose, or men save themselves by their prudent free will decision to believe, which leaves God in debt to men for their response.”

In scripture, grace is called grace. And grace is revealed when God doesn’t destroy us as we deserve, but reveals himself to man. Paul says no man has an excuse, because God has revealed enough about himself to every man that no man can justify his sin. “For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”

But grace sometimes does result in repentance and salvation. When it does, Arminian called it ‘prevenient grace’. It differs from Calvin’s teaching in that it is not ‘irresistible’, and in that it’s purpose is not to make the choice for us, but to make the choice possible.

If a man accepts God’s gift, prevenient grace is saving grace. If a man rejects God and hardens his heart to the Holy Spirit, it becomes damning grace, since the damned man will have no excuse.

That man can and does resist God’s will is excruciatingly obvious in scripture and in life. Have I, since my conversion, resisted God’s will and hardened my heart against God? Far too often - every time I sin, I refuse God’s will.

Does God speak to us and reveal himself to us before conversion? Of course. He did to Cain, and Cain refused. He did to Cornelius, and Cornelius accepted what God gave to him - and then God gave him more. And those who harden risk losing all:

“Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“’You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’” - Matt 13

It doesn’t START with God denying them, but when they reject what God HAS given them, he takes even that away.

But notice, God doesn’t LIE to people. God’s word remains true. He withholds it from some (”For this people’s heart has grown dull...and their eyes they have closed”), but he doesn’t deceive them. He doesn’t say, “For God so loved the world” when he means “God so loved the elect”. He doesn’t look at the rich young ruler and hate him...it says Jesus LOVED him. He doesn’t say faith saves us, when election does.

I’ll also point out the idea of a limited atonement misses the point of the sacrifice of Jesus. God doesn’t total up the demerits of the sins of the elect, have it work out to - 4,315,000,523 demerits, and then happily find that the sacrifice of Jesus works out to 4,315,000,523 merits.

No. God is infinite. The sacrifice of Jesus - God - was infinite. No matter how much one has sinned, Jesus has it covered. It was enough to cover all the sins of the world, and 10,000 worlds more, if need be. There is no limit on the atonement made by infinite God. Infinity divided by 10,000,000,000 is still infinity. No matter how many times you dip a bucket into the river, the flow is not reduced.

What are we charged to do? “Believe in him whom he has sent”.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” — Jesus

Jesus told that to “a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews”. Pharisee comes from ‘perushim’ - set apart. Nicodemus thought he was already Chosen, and Set Apart for God. Not only were the Jews God’s Chosen People, but Pharisees were God’s Chosen Jews.

So here was a man chosen from the chosen...and Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit....For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.”

Jesus gave Nicodemus a rhetorical slap in the face - or kick between the legs. It was a specific rejection of Nicodemus the Pharisee and the Jews as chosen. “Whoever believes...in order that the world might be saved”.

“Whoever” and “world” leave no room for boasting. It isn’t because we are special, and it isn’t because we’ve earned squat - whoever/world leave no doubt that the individual hasn’t earned anything.

But if he came “in order that the world might be saved”, his purpose isn’t limited to a list of names. And those who believe are then set aside for a new purpose, to be conformed to Jesus.


5,156 posted on 01/20/2010 9:09:02 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: esquirette; Cronos; Mad Dawg; Petronski; wagglebee; vladimir998; Hegewisch Dupa

Remember when you wanted to know, seriously, who was the “Defender of the Faith”?

Well, I have pinged a few of them along with you...


5,157 posted on 01/20/2010 9:13:34 AM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.)
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To: vladimir998; Gamecock
I'm going to have to reevaluate my approach to these conversations. In the past few hundred posts to this thread we have had really quite remarkable falsehoods presented with the demeanor of wide-eyed sincerity or wounded innocence.

But further inquiry has shown in both cases that the kindest possible construction on the posts is remarkable negligence. And that's just the kindest construction.

Now I understand why one of them once told me that my report of what I saw with my own eyes decades ago could not be believed unless I could produce a corroborating witness. These people, when their sources are checked, are seen to me making it up.

God bless us all. When we misrepresent things to win arguments about Him whose Son is Truth, we're in trouble. Arguing on this forum may not be as suited to this kind of warfare as praying before the Blessed Sacrament. I'm not sure I have the grace to interact with folks whose concern for the Truth is so, well, flexible.

5,158 posted on 01/20/2010 9:17:11 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mr Rogers
But if he came “in order that the world might be saved”, his purpose isn’t limited to a list of names. And those who believe are then set aside for a new purpose, to be conformed to Jesus.

Excellent post.

John 3:16 is among the best known verses of the New Testament and two words in it are critical. First, Jesus Christ makes it clear that He was sent because of God's love for the WORLD, not a select group, the entire world. Secondly, Jesus Christ makes it clear that salvation is for WHOEVER believes in Him, again not a select group, but ANYONE who believes. And keep in mind that believing in Jesus Christ is an act of HUMAN SELF WILL, it is not an act of God's Will.

5,159 posted on 01/20/2010 9:18:30 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Cronos; 1000 silverlings

“Rogers told us his pastor was raised as a Roman Catholic.”

I said that as a kid, he was taken to Mass 2-3 times/year.

To say a man is a Catholic who has spent nearly 30 years as a Baptist preacher/counselor, and who currently is pastor of a Baptist church...if not a lie, it is certainly grossly in error.

I doubt any of the Catholic posters on this thread would consider George to be a priest.


5,160 posted on 01/20/2010 9:20:14 AM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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