“But, when I brought that up elsewhere to state that we need to differentiate between Protestants and Baptists, I was told that no one had ever heard of such a claim”
I think I’m the one who said I had never heard such a claim - and I hadn’t, until I read it here. So I was wrong - there ARE Baptists who claim Baptists have existed since Apostolic times. There is a Wiki article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmarkism
I apologize for MY error.
“Unless you’ve realised it by now, The Church is not a denomination.”
The church is also not a hierarchy. It means assembly, and sometimes had the meaning of a religious assembly, although the word is also used of a riot - so perhaps my charismatic sister isn’t so far off as I sometimes say! But there is nothing in scripture to indicate a hierarchy. The offices of the ‘church’ - assembly - are plainly set out. The question before us is if the Apostles left us “the full counsel of God”, or not. Did they tell us what offices are needed by the assemblies, or did they just give temporary advice on the matter?
“Yes, a non-Trinitarian is in the list of Protestants too...”
Anyone can CLAIM to be a Protestant. There is no copyright on the word. However, the 5 solas would be a better description, since those are what pulled folks away from the Catholic church, regardless of what denomination they end up in. And plenty of tares have left congregations, and set up NEW ‘churches’ that reject the 5 solas.
FK: “think we need to be careful when we use the word “saved” because it can have several perfectly correct Biblical uses that don’t appear to say the same thing. Sometimes we say “saved” when we mean “by God’s promises salvation is certain”. God’s promises are so airtight that “will be saved” can functionally equal “saved now”. If someone said “the elect were saved from the foundations” I would know exactly what the speaker meant and agree with the sentiment, even though the elements of salvation had not yet taken place within time. All of this is to say that perhaps your concern above might be alleviated when considered in this context.”
No, not really. I understand and have often stated that saved has multiple meanings in scripture. My point and problem with PD is that it has God justifying us, not by grace thru faith, but grace thru election. If I said, “Everyone who says Mr Rogers gets a piece of cake”, and then refused to listen to anyone saying Mr Rogers who wasn’t on my list of names, then I was lying when I said anyone who says Mr Rogers. I REALLY meant anyone on my list.
If God commands us to repent, but makes us unable to do so, then God isn’t being honest. If God commands us to do things, and then prevents us from doing it, He is dishonest. When Jesus said he came because he loved the world, if he really meant he came because he loved the elect, then Jesus was lying in John 3.
And God is NOT a liar.
The entire breadth of scripture assumes we make choices, and those choices have consequences. It is sophistry to say we are saved by faith, if God gives faith to those on his list, and denies it to everyone else. That is salvation by election.
FK: “And given that God is a loving God, for what good things would you NOT want to be fully dependent on Him? This question really helped me when I was thinking about all this before. Why would I want to BE or DO anything independently from God?”
I don’t. But if God comes to me, seeks out someone who wasn’t seeking him, and offers me a gift, taking it doesn’t mean I earned the gift, or that I compelled God to give it to me, or that I attained the gift apart from God or outside his will.
“Therefore, we are left with two choices; either Christ is a near total failure in achieving what He wants, or the outward call (theoretical) is not the same as the inward call (God takes action to ensure that His elect are saved).”
No, we are left with at least THREE choices: Christ failed, Christ was after something else more important, or God doesn’t say what he means.
HD: “What I think is REALLY clear is this:
Joh 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
This passage tells us exactly HOW we are born...I think John is saying there is nothing we can do externally (will of flesh) through our works or internally (will of man) though our inward being to be born of God. The only way to be born of God is through His efforts and then we receive and believe.”
If you are invited to a party, have you EARNED the invitation? Did you FORCE the invite? Or did someone else CHOOSE to invite you, and you only have the possibility of going because of THEIR will for you to be there? “ The only way to be born of God is through His efforts...” - correct, He must come to us, we cannot force our way in. “and then we receive and believe.” - except God’s invitation says “whosoever believes”. It doesn’t have our name on it.
It is like when the Koreans would invite 7th AF/A5 to a party. Anyone in 7AF/A5 could come, but no one was compelled to come. The invitation was to a category, not individuals.
HD: “By the way, John reiterates this later (actually in many places). Note this verse:
1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
The construct of this verse tells us that the only reason we believe is simply because we have been born of God.”
Context. 1 John 4 is about discerning false spirits: “1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world...13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit...20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.” Now, one verse later, John writes, “ 1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.”
Look around you. Worried about false prophets? “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.”
It does not teach that we are born again first, and then believe.