Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
1 Corinithians 9: 24 8 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. 25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. 9
Disqualified? Condemned. Lose salvation.
Of course not...There's nothing in there about salvation...Paul says to run the race as if you are in a marathon and their is only one prize for one winner...
And then Paul goes on to say that since he has taken on the role of the teacher, he must set the best example...Because it would be a real pity if Paul as a teacher did not get a particular crown but some of his students did...Has nothing to do with salvation...
I do not even pass judgment on myself; 4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
Paul is saying that he does not even know if God will acquit him in His Judgement. Paul had great faith. Paul is telling us that it is possible that he could fall away.
No, Paul did not say that...You are making it up again...
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Paul says he is justified and that there is only One that matters when it comes to judgement...
Philippians 2: 12 10 11 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
It's all fun and games until you lose your salvation.
Nothing there about losing salvation...We've already learned numerous times that salvation is a free gift...You can't earn it...Therefore, you don't have to work for your salvation...
The verse does not say, 'work for your salvation'...It says you have salvation...Now, work it out...And why work it out???
Because your bad works will get burned up and you want to have some good works built up on your account so you won't appear naked when you appear before Jesus...
Has nothing to do with salvation...It all has to do with rewards...As the verse says, work out you salvation...That's salvation you already have...
INDEED. THX THX
The “alter call” is intended to give anyone in need of help to come and receive that help, from the Lord, and from other brethren who are ready to kneel with anyone and pray and/or give admonition from the word of God. If it is a situation where much time will be required, separate “inquiry rooms” are available. Yet unsaved, hearing the Gospel and want to use the “altar” as a place to pray, repent, and receive Christ by faith, are welcome there. But Born-Again believers are also welcome to pray there, about any matter concerning themselves or the needs of others. Sometimes fathers will lead their entire families to the “altar” to devote their families to the service of God. Sometimes young men or ladies will use the “altar” to dedicate themselves to God under some call to service.
The “altar” and the “altar call” are NOT only for those seeking personal repentance unto the soul’s salvation. The “altar” is for any prayers want to be made, any revival or repentance sought, any dedication of heart and will to God. More mature believers often resort at the “altar” for the sole purpose of encouraging others to respond to the Lord—if one responds—those struglling over a decision are often encouraged to respond as well.
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AMEN! AMEN! Has been standard in all the Pentecostal, Charismatic etc. churches I’ve been a part of.
So, IF it is proper for humans to have passion, then we will have passion in heaven, but it will not conflict with our ever increasing intimacy with God. Presumably God’s bliss is uncompromised by the damnation of the wicked, so ours will not be either.
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More or less Agreed, I think.
Personally . . . I see Heavenly Passions as being well ordered . . . yet not lacking sponteneity and certainly not lacking intensity.
I still think speaking of
CHRIST’S PASSION
is fitting . . . as would be St Paul’s Passion for his countrymen . . . . as good and admirable to the max.
I do not see satan as a creator.
I see him as a polluter, twister, tarnisher, corruptor of what God has created—including passions.
I'm not sure how this relates to the post I made...However;
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The people of the world are already condemned...But as you say, they are not condemned due to the sin of their fathers...They are condemned because of Adam's sin...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
God's grace is offered to ALL men, according to God...
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This verse is used of course to prove that God draws some folks but not others...I see the verse differently...
For me, it's like saying the large jackpot of the lottery will draw a lot of players...
Now of course the jackpot doesn't draw anyone...But, people are drawn to the jackpot...
So what I see is that no one can come to Jesus without first being drawn to the Father...And this comes from the grace that was given to all men...Some will respond to that grace, some won't...God says he is the Savior of ALL men, not just those whom he choses...God is the Savior of all men who will chose Him but He wants ALL men to chose Him...
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
We are talking past each other. There is only one infinitely perfect God. Muslims worship Him imperfectly.
I . . . uhhh . . . passionately disagree.
I have experienced passionate empathy . . . and passionate understanding . . .
wherein Holy Spirit wrought empathy and/or understanding were so thorough-going and intense . . . it was like a . . . transfiguration, a transformation, an epiphany of God’s presence between and in the midst of and merging a lot, for the moment, in a list of ways, two hearts greatly more than had been the case before.
Actually, have experienced the MOST intense such without having a thing to do with sexual contact or fantasies whatsoever—and having lots to do with spiritual sharing and spiritual COMMUNE-ING.
I would be the first to admit that my flawed sexual thrills—including the radio preacher’s exciting “THIS IS REALLY IT” incident that Sat AM with my wife . . . must have been quite anemic compared to those rapturously engaged bedroom atheletes. However, I think I have experienced ENOUGH thrills of such to be convinced that the route to Holy Spirit’s paragon passions are at least NOT ALWAYS along that line.
I realize that in the ideal and for many, such relations are a model of Christ’s love for us and The Church. And, I realize that I never made it to that standard—at least not much—in my marriage. So I admit that my reference points are probably a bit askew.
HOWEVER,
I don’t think the basic physiology was that askew. I think the dopamine firings, floodings in my brain were at or close to as intense with me as with most folks.
I just think that my spiritual, emotional, interpersonal SHARINGS OF A VERBAL, SPIRITUAL sense, type . . .
WERE AT LEAST
AS
INTENSE and often MORE intense than the best orgasms.
And, I do not think that, in Heaven, there will, per se, be any limit on such spiritual, heart to heart, spirit to spirit sharing, understanding, merging, in a sense. And for me, there’s no more fitting label than PASSION for such times—we can speak of—
a PASSION FOR
—the lost
—Christ
—God’s priorities
—Heaven
. . .
So, in Heaven, I do not see PASSIONS excluded, per se . . . as much as superceded . . . transformed, released, perfected.
I think your confusion is because you are viewing the Catholic Church through the lens of Protestantism and the Old Testament. The Catholic Church bases its conduct requirements not on the severe and complex laws of the Old Testament but upon the Beatitudes embodied in the New Testament. The role of the Church is not that of policeman and District Attorney, but of teacher and facilitator for the Salvation of all. The Eucharist is a private experience between the recipient and God. The priests and clergy accept by default the sincerity of those who present themselves for the Eucharist because there is no worldly way to know the heart of the recipient.
From the Catechism:
1972 - The New Law is called a law of love because it makes us act out of the love infused by the Holy Spirit, rather than from fear; a law of grace, because it confers the strength of grace to act, by means of faith and the sacraments; a law of freedom, because it sets us free from the ritual and juridical observances of the Old Law, inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity and, finally, lets us pass from the condition of a servant who "does not know what his master is doing" to that of a friend of Christ - "For all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you" - or even to the status of son and heir.
“Offertory and Communion in one handy package. / Hmm, what’s IN this coffee?”
Hmm...I’m guessing it tastes funny because someone ground up Luther’s 95 Thesis and stuck it in your cup!
I have seen churches that refused to take an offering before. I use my bank’s automatic bill pay for my offering...I may seem odd in liking the term “Eucharist”, but no one complains about auto-donations!
Correction, I see now that i pasted it in my exchange as a quote from Keating.
Well I disagree with him ...
So you think God could sin if he wanted to and still remain God?
I repeat if God can act contrary to His nature you can not trust one act or word of God..
God defines Character so He could choose to redefine it right?
Once again Mary was not asked was she? She was TOLD what would be done, not asked
Mary would never said" no way "because her heart and will had been lined up with Gods..and her will was to do His will
That was a divine YES not a human one, it was a yes brought on by an act of God. Salvation is all..100% of God
Neither Mary or Jesus had original or any other sin.
Actually that is not what your church catechism says ..
578 Jesus, Israel's Messiah and therefore the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, was to fulfill the Law by keeping it in its all embracing detail - according to his own words, down to "the least of these commandments".330 He is in fact the only one who could keep it perfectly
If ONLY Christ could keep the whole law PERFECTLY then Mary could not keep it perfectly so she had sin just like all men.. if she had a sinless nature She would be a god and Christ would have no human nature..
Nevertheless Jesus chose to be baptized by water,
The baptism was to mark the start of His public ministry.
Jesus had to fulfill the law PERFECTLY and so "Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood."Exodus 29:1-7
On the other hand Mary was not a priest, and if she was as you say "sinless " then she had no "original sin" to "wash away"
were I confessing believer baptism, I would recognize Mary’s act of faith as such.
But you do NOT believe in a believers baptism , so why do you believe that was Marys baptism? Could you cite an official church doctrine on this?
Fascinating. No wonder you're such a close personal FRiend to the Roman Catholics in these discussions.
Does your "Baptist" church go along with that word-choice, too?
” So God gives “unequal measure” of grace to men, and yet even then He withdraws it from some of them? / lol. That’s pretty rude.”
Not really.
” 11As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ 19And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; 21for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten minas!’ 26’I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’” - Luke 19
Dr E “Does God give all men eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart of flesh and a renewed mind? No.”
Does God give a new heart and new mind prior to someone believing? No. Calvin teaches that, but the Bible does not.
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” - Ephesians 1
“And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.” - Mark 10
“And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” 3And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” 4But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 6But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—”Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” 7And he rose and went home.” - Matt 9
John 10:26 comes when the Jews who had watched Jesus and refused to believe said, “”How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” And Jesus replies, “”I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.”
That COULD mean he saves a list of names (salvation by grace thru election), or it COULD mean that having repeatedly rejected both the message and miracles of Jesus, they had made their hard hearts manifest and were no longer able to come. As I have said, those who reject the revelation given may well lose what they had and be entirely cast off.
Matthew 13:10-11 is immediately followed by Matt 13:12, which reads, “For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.” Now, read the last sentence of my previous paragraph...does it seem related?
Context.
It is important in Romans 9, which is answering the question, “Are the Jews still the inheritors of the promise to Abraham, or has their rejection of Christ resulted in the cancelling of the covenant?”. It deals with what will happen to the Jewish people, not how people are saved - Paul already addressed THAT in Romans 3-6. It finishes with Romans 11: “25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved...”
“But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.” — 1 Corinthians 1:23-24
First, let’s put it in context. Verse 23 follows verse 21: “21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.”
And verse 24 is followed by verses 26-29 “26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.”
So then, God saves those who believe. And He chooses to do so in order that the strength of man might be denied. For it isn’t thru man’s power that we reach up to heaven and pull God down, and it isn’t by our wisdom we understand God, but God reaching down, opening eyes, revealing Himself and saving those who believe.
And it humiliates the wise precisely because it IS by faith. Even a stupid person can believe God. Even a poor person can have faith. Even a commoner can repent. It isn’t our mighty arm that saves us, but God’s - if we believe.
What calling means is well discussed here:
It is an invitation, a summons, a calling - that can be refused:
“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’ 5But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them.” - Matt 22
So much for being irresistibly called by name! Yes, we are called. So are others, who refuse to respond. And if we come, we are clothed in robes fit for the feast...and if we refuse those, we are cast out (see 11-14).
Fantasies and myth are not reality . . .
whether theological or otherwise.
So now agreeing with Catholics has been elevated to some kind of Orthodox Presbyterian thoughtcrime.
The malignant machenoma is a terrible thing to watch in action.
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