Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
The vast body of Vatican sources using such a term in hyper special ways is massive and outrageously unique. Oh, I suppose you can find Orthodox, Lutheran and some other sources that somewhat join such bandwagons. However, on the whole--the Vatican sources seem to be leading the pack . . .
MASSIVELY LEADING THE PACK IN TOTAL VOLUME AND IN EXTREMES OF WORD USE AND RACING PAST THE BIBLICAL LINE OF TRULY BIBLICAL ORTHODOXY TO SWIMMING IN OCEANS OF HERETICAL OUTRAGES.
Sigh.
Quix, I’m a Catholic, not a “Vatican associate.”
I don’t think very many protestants on these threads have had the experience of being a mother, physically. It is VERY clear to a human mother that she gives part of herself to the child she bears. It is also clear that the child is a completely separate being. We know from the first day that we know we are pregnant, that the day of our delivery (deliverance) approaches inexorably.
Every child brings either honor or dishonor to his/her mother. My son, by being who he is, has brought honor to me. His achievements reflect well on me and his father. But we do not claim his triumphs as our own.
See?
St Bernard says it's all from GOD.
It should be “makes this distinction”, thank God, but the issue is not simply what is officially taught, but what is effectually conveyed, as the context was the use of MoG as part of the ethos which post 788 examples.
I am not making a sociological statement. I do not have hard data which would stand up to analysis. I am making a theological statement and one which is informed by my own reading of theologians and philosophers.
I think the objectivty, etc. is lacking on the other side. I keep on reading statements about mother hood that are not born out in science or in the history of theology and philosophy.>When people have heart attacks over the statements of famous Catholics they have to edit out the words, assert that people who aren't theologians are, or ignore the uses of poetic language.
It's as I said to someone elsse earler on another topic. I look at the house you're looking at. YOu say it's low and round, I say it's tall an angular. It's what I see.
and when the lowness and roundness becomes the occasion of a passionate verbal assault, what can I be but bemused? It's not what we teach, it's not what we think, it has nothing to do with us, except that it is our words which are being mangled.
That is not the issue, but the attribution to her of such great powers, incldg. being the dispenser of all grace, etc., etc. Jesus Himself was given power in Heaven and earth, but no where do we see it even intimated that departed saints are to be heavenly objects of prayer (unless you suppose Abraham was in Heaven in Lk. 16:19ff, but even then the “prayer” was not as thoughts from one’s heart), or are given power that even God is subject to. That is word of faith theology, not Biblical doctrine.
I would not advise you to defend St Bernard here.
Off to Dentist shortly.
Thanks for your . . . thoughtful . . . responses.
I’ll stop there, for now.
LUB
“The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ (St. Bernard, Serm.II in Adv. 4) ‘the Reparatrix of the whole world,’ (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm
‘O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.’” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #9.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm
.When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....Mary is this glorious intermediary...” Pope Leo XIII, in Octobri Mense (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 22, 1891, # 4.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro1.htm
Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: ‘Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us.’”Pope Leo XIII, in Iucunda Semper Expectatione (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 8, 1894, #5.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro5.htm
All gifts which the Author of all good (God) has deigned to communicate to the unhappy posterity of Adam, are, according to the loving resolve of His Divine Providence, dispensed by the hands of the Most Holy Virgin.” Pope Benedict XV (AAS 9, 1917, 266) (quoted in “About Our Lady, our Blessed Mother”, by Our Lady’s Warriors).
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/abtmary.htm
“The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.” Pope Pius IX, in Ubi Primum (On the Immaculate Conception), Encyclical promulgated on February 2, 1849, #5.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ubipr2.htm
“The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ (St. Bernard, Serm.II in Adv. 4) ‘the Reparatrix of the whole world,’ (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm
“In conclusion: we may say that, in virtue of the divine salvific counsels ordaining a most perfect redemption, our Lady as Coredemptrix is included with Christ, the One Mediator.” Rev. Fr. Peter Damian M. Fehlner, F.F.I., professor of Catholic Theology, in Immaculata Mediatrix — Toward a Dogmatic Definition of the Coredemption.
It misleading to insert this PROPOSAL into a catalogue of writings from saints and popes.
http://www.voxpopuli.org/book_2_10.php
“Pope Pius XII explains in an address on the Queenship of Mary, ‘when the glorious Virgin Mary entered triumphantly into heaven and was elevated above the choirs of angels to the throne of the Most Holy Trinity.’ And then Christ ‘placed a triple crown of glory on her head, presented her to the heavenly court, seated her at his right hand and pronounced her Queen of the Universe.’...Opus Sanctorum Angelorum, Formation Letter, “Mary - ‘Regina Angelorum’”, April, 2000.
http://www.opusangelorum.org/Formation/Maryregina.html
Really and seriously, I can understand that the rhetoric, much of which makes me uncomfortable (except that I seem to have an affection for St Louis de Montfort which I do not quite understand) is problematic. BUT I do not see that God is dissed or that Mary is deified.
It is so interesting to be mugged so often for not being sufficiently Scriptural. We find incredible promises in the Gospel and those of us who are devoted to our Lady find increasing evidence in our lives that, even in the face of our doubts, God seems to pay special and remarkable attention to Mary's intercession.
I'd be embarrassed to call myself an honest thinker if I got caught excerpting out of context like that.
You guys go ahead and practice your very edited sort of Sola Scriptura. We find Jesus promising to the Apostles that he will lead them into all truth, and we trust Him so much that we trust him even when the successors to the Apostles and the priests they ordain act like bozos.
By contrast, your side holds the Scripture up against the Church, ignoring how NoGrayZone's posts and the debate between Arminians and Calvinists demonstrate the inability of Sola Scriptura to serve as an authority.
Dentist? What fun. O.T. slaves went free for the loss of one, by the hand of their master, but for the lost, “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mat 8:12) But “The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.” (Psa 34:18) And “to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.” (Isa 66:2)
May i always be of such, and that yet rejoices in Him.
But from the verses I posted we see that is not true. EVERYTHING we have is from God.
It's not "TULIP. It"s Christianity. Mercy and not debt.
I'll save you from all that "typing" and give you the following link which refutes Norm Geisler's tired and faulty critique of Calvinism. Because challenges to God's sovereignty to name His own family according to His will and purpose are as old as time.
"...As one begins to wade through CBF ("Chosen But Free") one is immediately aware that Geisler is not dealing with terms in their historical context but rather redefining terms in order to demonize those who would disagree with him. Calvinism, traditionally and minimally explicated by the TULIP acrostic (Total depravity or inability; Unconditional election; Limited atonement; Irresistible grace; Perseverance of the saints) is said to be "extreme" Calvinism. What a surprise this must be to men such as Jonathan Edwards, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, George Whitefield, J. Gresham Machen, and contemporaries such as James Boice, R.C. Sproul and John Piper..."
Meant to bump you to Geisler’s typing, too. So many lists. 8~)
Wagglebee: The key phrase here is "obtain for us", this is totally different from saying that she dispenses salvation.
"Your honor, my client is clearly innocent. As the evidence plainly shows, he never DISPENSED drugs to his customers, he merely OBTAINED drugs for his customers."
Why would anyone follow a "bozo," especially if you believe that "bozo" is being "led into all truth?"
That's why Scripture is the Christian's rule of faith and practice. It is inerrant and accomplishes all that God ordains.
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11
My response:
The key phrase here is "obtain for us", this is totally different from saying that she dispenses salvation.
Forest Keeper's reply:
"Your honor, my client is clearly innocent. As the evidence plainly shows, he never DISPENSED drugs to his customers, he merely OBTAINED drugs for his customers."
I find it quite odd that you compare eternal salvation with the commission of a crime. Is there a reason for this?
You see, the argument falls apart when you remove its illicit nature. Let's try this one:
"Your honor, as the evidence clearly shows, the milk maid merely obtained the milk, the cow dispensed it."
RULE ONE: "Rome" is the locus of all evil in the universe.
RULE TWO: In case of doubt, see rule one.
All else is irrelevant.
Your verses do not indicate that Jesus is God, either. Sons of God refer to many individuals. The OT refers to angels and other beings as sons of God. David is called son of God. Christians in the NT are called sons of God. Are we all gods by your terminology? Who are the sons of God that marry the daughters of men in Genesis 6? Did God create a whole bunch of Jesus equivalents?
Care to link proof of that alleged Vatican approval?
Sure, this is from their own site: Legion of Mary under "What is it?". Now, I could understand if you didn't want to take a group's self claim as concrete proof. So, I also came across this public shout out from Pope JPII to the Legion of Mary for their evangelizing work: JOHN PAUL II HOMILY St. Louis, January 27, 1999. An excerpt:
"In this area, numerous Religious Congregations of men and women have labored for the Gospel with exemplary dedication, generation after generation. Here can be found the American roots of the evangelizing efforts of the Legion of Mary and other associations of the lay apostolate. The work of the Society for the Propagation of the Faith, made possible by the generous support of the people of this Archdiocese, is a real sharing in the Church’s response to Christ’s command to evangelize."
The above is found in the last paragraph of "3.". Finally, back to the Legion of Mary site, there is this: Pope John Paul II to the Legion of Mary Part of an address delivered by the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, to a group of Italian legionaries on 30th October 1982:
"...... My predecessors, beginning with Pius XI, have addressed words of appreciation to the Legion of Mary, and I myself on 10 May 1979, when receiving one of your first delegations, recalled with great pleasure the occasions I had previously had to come in contact with the Legion, in Paris, Belgium and Poland, and then, as Bishop of Rome, in the course of my pastoral visits to the parishes of the city. Today, therefore, as I receive in audience the Italian pilgrimage of your movement, I would like to emphasise those aspects which constitute the substance of your spirituality and your modus essendi within the Church."
"Vocation to be a leaven - 2. You are a movement of lay people who propose to make faith the aspiration of your life up to the achievement of personal sanctity. It is without doubt a lofty and difficult ideal. But today the Church, through the Council, calls all Christians of the Catholic laity to this ideal, inviting them to share in the kingly priesthood of Christ with the witness of a holy life, with mortification and charitable works; to be in the world, with the splendour of faith, hope and charity, what the soul is in the body (LG 10,38)."
"Your proper vocation as lay people, that is the vocation to be a leaven in the People of God, a Christian inspiration in the modern world, and to bring the priest to the people, is eminently ecclesial. The same Second Vatican Council exhorts all the laity to accept with ready generosity the call to be united ever more intimately to the Lord and, considering as one's own everything that is his, to share in the same salvific mission of the Church, to be its living instruments, above all where, because of particular conditions of modern society - a constant increase in population, a reduction in the numbers of priests, the appearance of new problems, the autonomy of many sectors of human life - it could be more difficult for the Church to be present and active (ibid. 33)."
Since this is a worldwide organization, I would assume that if here the Legion was totally fabricating the Pope's remarks (I didn't find this at .va) that someone at the Vatican would have been notified and the page would have been pulled.
> I do not see that God is dissed or that Mary is deified.<
I am not sure how the double posting got there, but in the Bible God is revealed as possessing certain incommunicable Divine attributes, one of which is the ability to hear and answer infinite numbers of prayers. (Ps. 65:2) And in addition, He is set forth as the direct object of prayer, and the giver of gifts. (1Cor. 12) In no place is power attributed to departed saints to hear or answer prayer, nor to dispense gifts or salvation from the heavenly realm. Nor are saints rewarded for their works before the day of Christ. (1Cor. 3:3; Phil. 2:16; 1Pt. 5:4; Rev. 11:8)
To exalt Mary as a heavenly intermediary, and unto whom God has committed “the treasury of all good things”, so that “through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation”, as all “gifts...are...dispensed by the hands of the Most Holy Virgin”, and “none attains salvation except through her”, and who was elevated “above the choirs of angels to the throne of the Most Holy Trinity”, as one who “seems to have the same power as God”, “all but unlimited”, is both Scripturally unwarranted and presumptuous, and ascribes to Mary Divine abilities and functions which belong to the Trinity.
This is akin to Mormonism’s promotion of Joseph Smith, as is your appeal to subjective feelings to affirm a doctrine which the objective authority of the Bible will not support.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.