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Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?
Me

Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: 1holyapostolicchurch; apostates; catholic; catholicbashing; catholicwhiners; devilworshippers; eckleburghers; greeks; heathen; orthodoxyistheone; papistcrybabies; proddiecatholic; robot; romanistispejorative; romanists; romanistwhinefest; romannamecallers; russians
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To: RnMomof7; Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; Quix

Virtues are fruits of the Holy Spirit most definitely.

They are not entirely opposed to passions; they can, in fact purify and channel a passion orienting it to the truth.

Art, for example, so long as it retains its necessary sacred character, is such ennobled passion.


7,501 posted on 01/30/2010 4:44:58 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: RnMomof7
The rebellion of the angels was a part of Gods plan of creation

Scripture, please. While you are there, please quote the Scriptures which say that God is the author of sin.

without the rebellion and the fall we never would have known all of Gods character of grace and mercy

In the Reformed theology, the Reformed God only shows mercy to the select few. Which is contrary to the Gospels. And Paul.

7,502 posted on 01/30/2010 4:45:37 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: RnMomof7; MarkBsnr
The rebellion of the angels was a part of Gods plan of creation, without the rebellion and the fall we never would have known all of Gods character of grace and mercy

Amen.

1/3 of the angels fell. 2/3 did not. All according to God's plan.

Clearly this one fell:


7,503 posted on 01/30/2010 4:51:48 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: Petronski
ORC: The trees are strong my Lord. The roots go deep.

SARUMAN: Rip them all down.


7,504 posted on 01/30/2010 4:52:25 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: HarleyD

Harley:

I never knew you went blonde.


7,505 posted on 01/30/2010 4:54:45 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: HarleyD; P-Marlowe

There is nothing in John 1:12-13 that negates a foreknowledge/omnipotence based predestination.

That gets to the heart of my and Marlowe’s objection that you can’t speak to God’s methodology of predestining, since you claim that it’s secret.


7,506 posted on 01/30/2010 4:55:27 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: MarkBsnr

LOL! It would make wearing shirts rather difficult with those wings. :O)


7,507 posted on 01/30/2010 4:57:09 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; boatbums; wmfights; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Petronski; Cronos

“So, you’re saying that man creates faith, is that correct? According to the London Baptist Confession of Faith this is not so:”

Actually, I’m saying faith is the name given when one person believes another...and that it REQUIRES one to believe another, and cannot be given like an apple.

Does that agree with the “Particular Baptist” Confession? Well, not if it is a confession produced by Particular Baptists, all of whom were, by definition, Calvinists. You might as well point out that Calvinists condemned Arminius at the Synod of Dort.

Shoot, you might as well point out Calvinists condemning...they do it so well.

Now, does faith take places apart from God? Of course not. Faith requires two. It is defined as having “confidence or trust in a person or thing”, so there is no such thing as mono-faith.

“You will find many of the very good commentary of old WERE Calvinists simply because THIS WAS the teaching of the Protestant church.”

Actually, a great many men go to seminary when young, and teach what they were told. Or agree to it without teaching it. Hence we have infant baptism, which is not taught in scripture. We had state churches, not taught in scripture. Calvin & Luther accepted perpetual virginity of Mary, which takes considerable twisting around scripture.

My pastor wants Grudem’s Systematic Theology (an updated version of Loraine Boettner) taught, because he was taught it and he trusts it. However, his sermons are Arminian. MacArthur teaches PD, but says we also have free will. J Vernon MacGhee was taught it, but later taught it was all about the ‘whoever wills, and whoever won’ts’.

I haven’t been to seminary. After listening to MacArthur’s sermons on PD this fall, I decided to start my own study by listing all the scripture with predestination, elect, election and chosen in it. I was shocked to find that predestination, for example, occurred only 6 times, and two of them didn’t involve individuals, and two more were side by side in adjacent verses.

When I then read all the verses in context, it seemed obvious that election wasn’t about a list of names at all.

It is sort of like when I had 25 minutes last week to present Arminian scriptures to our Sunday School class. At the end, a guy I much admire came up and pulled 4 Systematic Theology texts out of his bag and said all of them contradicted me. I showed him my Bible, and said it agreed, which is why I had tried to review over 200 verses.

“Doesn’t it make you wonder why you find so many Catholics agreeing with you?”

No. I don’t consider Catholics to be the root of all evil. We agree on a great many things - the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, etc. We also disagree on many things - Indulgences, Priests, Penance, etc. But I believe many Catholics ARE Christians with some poor doctrine that needs to be straightened out here, there, or in the air.

I’ve met Catholics and Baptists both that believed in salvation by accounting - either denomination, they are damned unless they repent. But not all Baptists or Catholics believe that...


7,508 posted on 01/30/2010 5:05:59 PM PST by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: RnMomof7; annalex; Mr Rogers; Forest Keeper
In all seriositude, I wouldn't find that to conflict with the intellect, protected and assisted by grace.

An appeal to Spiritual guidance without the intellect's being involved gets close to gnostic territory. " I know because I know." "I have a channel to such grace that when I look upon a thing I just know whether it is true or not because the Spirit tells me."

The problem with that is reconciling it with debate and discussion. In the rawest and simplest case we should just pray for one another's conversion. Maybe we could hope that in a barrage of our words, somehow God would speak.

And certainly this might explain why some here can look right past the words of a text and say they just know what it really means, and they know so much and so well that an appeal to the actual grammar and syntax is unavailing.

But then we still end up stuck. If there is no other canon one can use for judging, since one's interlocutor claims to be guided by the Spirit, we are left with agreement or "I don't think so."

And that comes down to yelling at each other. No conversation, no dialogue is really possible.

And again, it's dualistic. The intellect is what we use to determine "technical imperatives," such as what you have to do if you want a source of light powered by electricity. It is also what we use to understand the rightness or wrongness of actions. It's not entirely sufficient to the task, but we can go a long way using just the intellect to explain why theft or assault and battery is a bad thing.

But if the Spirit, operating without the intellect and without the other faculties, tells us spiritual truths, then it is hard to see why God bothered to redeem humans, since all their faculties are rejected. Jesus came, died, rose, and ascended so that the Spirit could come and override everything that is human in us.

We Catholics maintain that while the human being is radically disordered because of Sin, what the redemption of Christ and the gift of the Spirit do is, among other things, redeem the normal human activities and faculties. The generative faculty is brought into marriage in which each spouse is a Christ and evangelist to the other. And the intellective faculty, set free by grace through faith, can know and discern and explain what before was inaccessible.

So to appeal to the Spirit alone, is either woefully incomplete or is part of a proclamation that says that everything proper to humans was not only tainted but destroyed by the Fall and now we must function on inspiration alone. That's a tough position to hold.

7,509 posted on 01/30/2010 5:14:12 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Quix

Thanks. Yeah. I’m way better. God is merciful. How can I who turned so long against His Spirit dare to ask his grace to breathe a few years more. Yet I dare, and He grants.


7,510 posted on 01/30/2010 5:19:53 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: annalex
I think The Blood of Jesus,
the fire of His Spirit
are all
that reliably purify anything.

7,511 posted on 01/30/2010 5:26:17 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Mad Dawg

I for one, am quite happy that He does.

Regardless of the argument Calvin and Mary are having about you.

/joke


7,512 posted on 01/30/2010 5:27:59 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: HarleyD

Are you sure that one wasn’t still born?


7,513 posted on 01/30/2010 5:29:07 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg
There is nothing in John 1:12-13 that negates a foreknowledge/omnipotence based predestination.

On the contrary. The fundamental argument of foreknowledge/omnipotence based predestination is simply to reinforce the free will of man to choose salvation. John 1:12-13 states that salvation is not by the will of the flesh or the will of man but of God. There are plenty of other verses that supports this including John 6:44. In fact, John will make no sense unless one suspense their understanding of free will.

Now it is very difficult, although some have tried, to make an argument that God looks down some time tunnel and see who is going to be saved and predestines them upon this foreknowledge. This argument has one deep flaw (many actually); it forgets (or doesn't mention) that God did this all before we were even created. So if we were to make a choice, how could God possibly have predestined us before the choice was made? How could He have "chose" us when He wouldn't have known?

That gets to the heart of my and Marlowe’s objection that you can’t speak to God’s methodology of predestining, since you claim that it’s secret.

Tell me, why did God choose Abraham and not his brother to talk to? Why did God talk to Moses and not to Aaron? Why did Jesus call some to be in His immediate circle and others He simply told to go and preach the gospel? Who knows? This is all part of the secret counsel of God. And it isn't some great flaw in the doctrine's logic to simply say we don't know why God spoke to Moses and not Aaron.

It is a bit unseemly for people to criticize Reformers for saying "We have all the answers" and then when we say, "Well, why God elects some and not others is a mystery." we get a big, "AH HA!!!"

There is no greater EXAMPLE in scripture of God CHOOSING a people then the people of Israel. And yet we hear everyone can choose God. Well tell that to a Canaanite if you can find one.

7,514 posted on 01/30/2010 5:29:35 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: Quix
I’d expect God to hide her burial to try and avoid the very thing that has built up over the centuries.

I think it is also why we don't have the original writings of the apostles and prophets, only manuscript copies. They would be worshipped, I think.

7,515 posted on 01/30/2010 5:31:01 PM PST by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
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To: annie laurie

thnx. He is worthy of all praise and glory. Amen!


7,516 posted on 01/30/2010 5:32:40 PM PST by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
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To: HarleyD
Now it is very difficult, although some have tried, to make an argument that God looks down some time tunnel and see who is going to be saved and predestines them upon this foreknowledge. This argument has one deep flaw (many actually); it forgets (or doesn't mention) that God did this all before we were even created. So if we were to make a choice, how could God possibly have predestined us before the choice was made? How could He have "chose" us when He wouldn't have known?

God is not within time. He is Alpha and Omega. Before all, during all, and after all. The time that we experience is not His experience. To say that God looks through a time tunnel is absurd. God is. The beginning and the end of time are as one to Him.

There is no greater EXAMPLE in scripture of God CHOOSING a people then the people of Israel. And yet we hear everyone can choose God. Well tell that to a Canaanite if you can find one.

Their descendents are still part of the all of Christ.

7,517 posted on 01/30/2010 5:55:56 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Mad Dawg

I
WOULD
THAT
YOU
BE
HOT
OR
COLD

.

Is
Passion-less
LIFE
REALLY
LIVING
--
much less
--
MORE
ABUNDANTLY?


7,518 posted on 01/30/2010 6:01:14 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

And then why was that not done for the Apostles?


7,519 posted on 01/30/2010 6:04:06 PM PST by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: boatbums

AGREED.

Have long felt that way.

HE is NOT interested in man glorying in the flesh at all.

That’s deadly.


7,520 posted on 01/30/2010 6:04:19 PM PST by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 TRAITORS http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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