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Amazing the things Prottys are called on to teach Roman Catholics et al's!
Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
Oh let’s not even go there. How far IS the East from the West anyway?
FK “I’m not exactly sure of the extent of your comparison to God’s ownership of the ranch in Calvin’s view. I think Calvin would say that God owns all the ranches, everywhere.”
My point wasn’t that there was a ranch, but that the ranch in Colorado wanted horses to be obedient slaves - and would compel them to obey no matter how much bloodshed it took.
Calvin’s God is one who values absolute obedience over loving obedience, so he’ll spur as much as needed to compel total obedience...except for when we sin. There seems to be an exception for that.
FK “As to being too terrified to do anything without permission, what will be your reaction upon coming face to face with God for the first time?”
I’m hoping it will be, “Abba! Father!”
FK “Well, I know that you know that the idea of faith being a gift from God is axiomatic among many many Christians, so I won’t list everything there is to list.”
I suspect it is from a misreading of Ephesians 2:8, or perhaps too many pastors went to Calvinist seminaries and never questioned what they were taught.
FK “John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. [We come to God by faith.]”
We respond to God with faith, or we harden our hearts. But this does not tell us that God gives us faith. He gives us grace, and revelation. Faith is our part, or not.
FK “John 6:63-65 : 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
No one can come unless God enables him - truly. We do not seek God, but God seeks us. In his grace, God gives us revelation in varying degrees. Apart from him, nothing happens.
FK “2 Tim. 2:24-26 : 24 And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. (granting of repentance is the same as granting faith).”
Again, God gives revelation of who he is. It may be that God will use Timothy’s instruction to reveal his will to these two men, or maybe not. But they would still have to respond (”they will come to their senses”). Opening their eyes to who God is doesn’t give faith, but allows it.
You cite Hebrews 12:2. In Hebrews 11, we find:
Heb 11: “1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.”
Commendation? We understand?
“39And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.” - Heb 11, final sentence.
“1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Yes. Peter confesses, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12); and that name is Jesus. It is he who saves and he alone. Thus there is no such thing as a person saving oneself; it is not possible. Our faith has no possibility apart from Jesus.
But neither is it passive. “let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us”
WE are to DO things. Not apart from God, but with God.
A dance. Not a kidnapping.
“Joh 1:12-3 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Yet even after I posted this verse, people keep insisting that man can make a choice by their “free will”. It just boggles the mind.” - HD
Maybe it is because we do not agree with the theology you are reading into the verse.
If God gives us the freedom to choose, and saves those who believe, then those who believe are saved by the will of God.
YOU define God’s will as being total control of our decision, although I’m still waiting to find out how we sin when we are totally under God’s control. However, many of us do NOT define God’s sovereignty in a way that rules out free choices made by his permission and desire. You are limiting God, and you won’t show scripture to explain why.
When all else fails they pick "nits".
In fairness we are talking past each other. Reformers and Evangelicals are searching Scripture for beliefs and RC's think their beliefs "evolve". Marian doctrines/dogmas are a perfect example of it.
The problem with beliefs that "evolve" is they can "evolve" right out of being Christian. I believe the Marian beliefs have done that.
Please list a single Marian belief that did not predate the Reformation and then show me where the Reformers condemned Marian beliefs (P.S. Read Luther's thesis #75).
Is the Reformed Holy Spirit insufficient to the task of sanctifying His Elite so that an ongoing refining is required? The Reformed Holy Spirit must be less omnipotent then advertised, I suppose. What shall we discover next? That the Reformed limousine ride is actually on an uncovered oxcart?
There are dozens of posts on the RF each day where the term liar is warranted, but the rules prohibit us from using it.
Don't try moving the goal posts. Have your church's Marian beliefs evolved over time or not?
Please take me off your ping list.
Thank you.
God breathed means to me that it is God’s Word - his speech, his meaning...it comes from the mouth of God.
Interesting. The only Scripture that is claimed to be from the mouth of God is the Torah, minus Deuteronomy. We have it from the Gospel writer known as Luke and the writer of Revelation known as John that God did not write their books. They say it in their respective beginning chapters.
SOLA is demonstrated - scripture is repeatedly used as the authority in disputes - a practice the church fathers seem to have followed.
An appeal to Scripture does not prove sola. And many if not most of the middle Fathers depended on the early Fathers for many if not most of their doctrinal development. There were many doctrines in place before Scripture was chosen.
And since it comes directly from God, not from men - there were no votes on scripture - we can trust it above what men say.
Ah, my friend, consider this: how were the Scriptures chosen? Who chose them? What was the process? How many versions of how many books were circulating? Hundreds of versions of the four Gospels (as well as hundreds of versions of the other nearly 100 Gospels that we know of). No votes? Tell me, how were the exact Scriptures chosen?
But remember, sola scriptura doesn’t say we cannot use anything else, only that anything else we use falls under the authority of scripture.
Where is the Scriptural authority of that statement?
“In our baptism, we were sealed by the Holy Spirit.” Here I, as a Baptist, disagree with Catholic doctrine, and probably Calvin’s doctrine as well. When we are baptized with the Holy Spirit - immersed in Him, giving control to Him (”18And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit” - being filled with the Spirit is like being drunk on Him - He becomes the source of our behavior) - we are sealed.
Sounds like more of a longer explanation for Catholic baptism. But again, we must insist on a precise definition of seal. Some of our friends think that seal means a ziplock baggie. I know that you regard it as a mark (such as potentates of old did with a signet - hence signing their mark - ring impressed in wax. The seal could be taken off since it was not a permanent thing.
When we hear the truth and believe, we are sealed - our inheritance is guaranteed.
Correct. Our inheritance is guaranteed. But we can refuse that inheritance. The prodigal son, for an example. But we can come back to a merciful and loving God whenever we want. He will accept us back. THAT is love.
Can we break the covenant on our side? I haven’t studied it enough to have an opinion.
I think that Matthew 25 has something to say on the subject.
I, too, insist you stop pinging me (excepting of course replies directly to a post of mine).
Has dogma been defined over time? Yes.
Have beliefs evolved? No.
((Scripture clearly says that the earth is flat))
Nope...Scripture says:
“He sitteth on the circle of the world” Is:40 or “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth”
Circles are round.
. . .
East LA from West LA?
East USA from Left Coast?
Beijing from . . . whatever’s opposite?
East Solar system [measured how?] from West Solar system?
East Milky Way from West Milky Way?
East Galactic Cluster from West Galactic Cluster?
East Multiverse from West Multiverse?
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I think I’ll just interpret it as a rather infinite distance and let it go at that.
INDEED! INDEED!
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Amazing the things Prottys are called on to teach Roman Catholics et al's!
The word
You are displaying many quotation marks, Dr. E. and are not attributing them. Where are you getting these definitions from? Who says that "foreknow" in terms of God means "to love personally and with specificity." Where is your proof?
THAT is the part of predestination we don't have the ability to understand. Scripture only tells us it is due to "God's good pleasure." Why God chooses some men to lift from from their misery and bring to Himself in faith while leaving others in their fallen, God-denying state is His alone to know. All men fallen. Some men saved.
Even St. Paul rejects this completely.
1 Corinthians 15: 26 11 The last enemy to be destroyed is death, 27 12 for "he subjected everything under his feet." But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him. 28 When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will (also) be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.
The only way that God may be all in all in a Calvinist universe is if He specifically condemns men to hell for his own pleasure. Paul calls Calvin a liar.
Philippians 2: 9 Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name 7 that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, 8 of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.
Men condemned to hellfire forever are not going to praise God, nor bend a knee to Him. Paul calls Calvin a liar.
Colossians 1: 18 He is the head of the body, the church. 9 He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness 10 was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross 11 (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.
All things, making peace by the blood of His Cross. Paul calls Calvin a liar. There. Peter may have denied Christ three times, but been forgiven; Paul calls Calvin a liar three times just here; is Calvin forgiven?
Maybe Jesus had foreknowledge of Chicago politics...
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