Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
“Your examples are still analogous to spiritual death. In Ezekiel Chapter 37 we see the Lord is sovereign - breathing life into dry bones.”
My examples include being children of wrath, being sick, being blind, and being slaves. None of those is DEAD. Someone born a slave might not know any better, but if given a choice, could certainly IMAGINE something better. And Jesus healed the blind - “And Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he recovered his sight and followed him on the way.”
“In Ezekiel Chapter 37 we see the Lord is sovereign”
Yes, God is sovereign. That is why HE gets to pick the means of salvation, not you.
“”the Lord is sovereign””
The Lord is Sovereign Good. There is no such thing as God who creates evil and is Sovereign. Calvin fell into Manachean heresy .
From Saint Thomas Aquinas
If anything is sovereignly evil, it must be evil by its very essence, as that is sovereignly good which is good by its essence. But evil has no essence (Chap. VII).
That which is a first principle is not caused by anything. But all evil is caused by good (Chap. X). There is therefore no evil first principle.
The incidental must be posterior to the ordinary. But evil happens only incidentally and beside the intention (Chap. IV). Therefore it is impossible for evil to be a first principle.
Hereby is excluded the error of the Manicheans.
notes
Chap. VII-http://www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/etext/gc3_7.htm
Chap. VII-http://www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/etext/gc3_11.htm
Chap. X-http://www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/etext/gc3_10.htm
Chap. IV-http://www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/etext/gc3_4.htm
That Evil is not a Nature or Essence*
Evil is nothing else than a privation of that which a thing is naturally apt to have and ought to have. But a privation is not an essence, but a negation in a substance.
5. Every essence is natural to some thing. If the essence ranks as a substance, it is the very nature of the thing. If it ranks as an accident, it must be caused by the principles of some substance, and thus will be natural to that substance, though perhaps not natural to some other substance. But what is in itself evil cannot be natural to anything: for the essence of evil is privation of that which is naturally apt to be in a thing and is due to it. Evil then, being a privation of what is natural, cannot be natural to anything. Hence whatever is naturally in a thing is good, and the want of it an evil. No essence then is in itself evil.*
6. Whatever has any essence is either itself a form or has a form,* for by form everything is assorted in some genus or species. But form, as such, has a character of goodness, being the principle of action and the end which every maker intends, and the actuality whereby every subject of form is perfected. Whatever therefore has any essence, as such, is good.
7. Being is divided into actuality and potentiality. Actuality, as such, is good, because everything is perfected by that whereby it actually is. Potentiality too is something good: for potentiality tends to actuality, and is proportionate to actuality, not contrary to it; and is of the same genus with actuality; and privation does not attach to it except accidentally.* Everything therefore that is, in whatsoever way it is, in so far as it is a being, is good.
8. All being, howsoever it be, is from God (B. II, Chap. VI). But God is perfect goodness (B. I, Chap. XLI). Since then evil cannot be the effect of goodness, it is impossible for any being, as being, to be evil.*
Hence it is said: God saw all things that he had made, and they were very good (Gen. i, 31): He made all things good in his own time (Eccles. iii, 11): Every creature of God is good (1 Tim. iv, 4).
I’m out of here until late tomorrow or friday
“Jesus told us that sola scriptura is used by those who think that they have eternal life through them. Wrong, says he.”
Wrong, MB. He doesn’t say they were wrong to look, only that they willfully ignored their testimony.
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.”
The scriptures do indeed testify of Christ, and in Timothy we read that they “are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
Yes, we must become a part of the Church He created - but that isn’t the Roman Catholic Church. It isn’t the Baptist Church either, for both were predicted by Jesus to have a mix of saved and unsaved. The Church we must belong to is his body, and we are sealed to the promise by the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Wrong, MB. He doesn’t say they were wrong to look, only that they willfully ignored their testimony.
They are not wrong to look and attempt to understand; they are wrong to prefer Scripture over God.
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.” The scriptures do indeed testify of Christ, and in Timothy we read that they “are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
Faith is the important operant here, not the Scriptures. Salvation is through faith, not through Scriptures.
Yes, we must become a part of the Church He created - but that isn’t the Roman Catholic Church.
Never claimed it was. That is the Catholic Church - created by Christ and commissioned by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
It isn’t the Baptist Church either, for both were predicted by Jesus to have a mix of saved and unsaved.
Don't recall Jesus predicting a Baptist Church.
The Church we must belong to is his body, and we are sealed to the promise by the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Will you tell me your understanding of what seal means? I have had conversation with many here who believe that seal means a ziplock baggie in which the individual is placed on their limo ride.
If you have received saving faith in Christ, Mark, guess what? You're part of the elect; the children of God; the sheep of Jesus Christ.
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." -- Isaiah 65:9,22
"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -- Matthew 24:31
"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?" -- Luke 18:7
"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." -- Romans 8:33
"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" -- Colossians 3:12
"Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness" -- titus 1:1"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there....
Are any of these you?
If you have received saving faith in Christ, Mark, guess what? You're part of the elect; the children of God; the sheep of Jesus Christ.
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." -- Isaiah 65:9,22
"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -- Matthew 24:31
"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?" -- Luke 18:7
"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." -- Romans 8:33
"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" -- Colossians 3:12
"Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness" -- titus 1:1"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there....
Are any of these you?
Everything, ultimately, is circular reasoning.
You can note all you like about my refusal to answer. I am not hiding it.
I am in a quandary. The only explanations I can come up with for how you would miss the plain meaning of the sections we posted from the Catechism's discussion of the atonement would fall under the mind-reading rubric, so I cannot say them.
All I can say is that I know of no other person who has read (or who claims to have read) that part of the Catechism and who says it teaches the exemplary doctrine of the atonement and no other. In fact, I thought it gave the exemplary doctrine rather short shrift.
So we cannot communicate or will not if we pursue this subject. It is as if we both looked at a house and you said, "It is short, round, and grey," and I said "it is tall angular and green." So I see no point in proceeding further.
Those who have "ears to hear" will.
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!
It is entirely possible that some (not all) of our separated brethren are playing with us.
Kind of silly. Surely the Lord Almighty I AM will not ask us, at our personal judgement, why we did not jump to their commands and take their silly games seriously. They will be happy to exhaust us by asking the same thing over and over and over again, neglecting our answers in favor of their repetitious demands.
Is there ANY non-Catholic that is unaware of the Catholic Catechism, or that it is online, free? And why should we, here, be held accountable for the actions of some artist in South America, who may or may not be Catholic, who may or may not be ignorant? And how, in the Holy Name of Christ, are we supposed to read the mind of a deceased saint and serve up to a non-believer a precise interpretation of the minutiae (as opposed to a general overview) in a vision’s description, which was written in another language 70 years ago?
I think that, at times, threads like this are a colossal waste; other times, not so much. There are those who sincerely ask a question, and sincerely appreciate an effort to answer honestly.
Discernment is a GOOD thing.
Thank you all so much for your insights and for including me in this sidebar!
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