Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[boatbums]

“Who fits in my heart only by breaking it...” — just lovely.

I especially liked that part as well! :o)

[Petronski]

If my posts are "sinking" it's only under the weight of the evidence of so much RC error.

Yes, Raving Calvinists stack the error thick and high.

[Mr Rogers]

Excellent point.

[Mr Rogers]

Totally off topic, but request prayers for this family in AZ...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100123/ap_on_re_us/us_arizona_weather_missing_child_5

[markomalley]

You referenced Nestles...Nestles has revised it's translation so many times that the words in use may change from month to month...

Actually, you should try reading my post.

And now that I'm home, consulting my Englishman's Greek New Testament(Newberry - 1970), which uses the Stephens text and compares it with Elzevir (1624), Griesbach (1085), Lachmann (1842-1850), Tischendorf, 8th Ed (1865-1872), Tregeles (1857-1872), Alford (1862-1870), and Wordsworth (1870), there are NO variant readings. None. They all say ὑστερήματα

But wait, there's more.

You used an online Strong's. But I don't think you looked at the instructions for how to read it. So I took the liberty of scanning the instructions from my printed Strong's. It's a pretty big file, so here's a thumbnail with a link:

You need to pay particular attention to paragraph 6, which I took the liberty to blow up.

You will note what it says about what follows the :- symbol. Not the definition of the word, but all of the different renderings in the AV.

So now, if we look at the Strong's definition for 5302 and 5303, we can properly read it:

I'm not trying to insult your intelligence here, but a lot of folks who just use the online resources don't know that little tidbit of information.

In addition, as long as I had my scanner on, I also scanned a couple of other sources for you.

First, from the 1978 Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon:

Then from Bullinger's A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament:

And finally from Thayer's:

In other words, the word ὑστερήματα is translated "lacking, poverty, want, insufficiency, etc." Period.

[MarkBsnr]

Yes, Raving Calvinists stack the error thick and high.

Like IHOP pancakes on top of Democrats' heads?

[MarkBsnr]

I was reading out of one of them Catholic bibles...

Like hell you were.

I think that you are even more accurate here than you usually are. Very appropriate reply.

[Alamo-Girl]

Hi there, dear stfassisi! Thank you so very much for sharing your insights!

We are all fine here and I pray all is well with you and yours.

Capitalism fails if man is immoral and does not love his neighbor as himself.

Truly, our existing political system depends on most people believing in God.

The system of oaths and swearing people in to give their testimony, is meaningful when the people believe in a God Who will see justice done. Likewise, the rule of law (including the whole system of taxation) relies on voluntary compliance.

Faith and morals are the anchors to Western civilation, in my view.

May God bless you always, dear stfassisi!

[Petronski]

You rock.

[MarkBsnr]

You’re just saying that because it’s true.

[nina0113]

Do you feel like anyone on these threads is preparing to seek out Catholic churches and spray paint graffiti on them, or attack your priests, and knock over your statues?

Somebody pulled the statue in front of my St. Mary parish over, presumably with their vehicle and a rope, breaking it into several pieces. Probably it was no one on these threads, but I can easily recognize the mindset, yes.

[John Leland 1789]

Hi!

I went to the article you marked. I read the entire article carefully, and after reading the comments of the writer about the change in Leland’s position, I wonder why they couldn’t have included one or two more pointed quotoations of Leland from the end of his life, where he is said to be anti-abolitionist.

So I went back and just read the quotations with the words of Leland himself several more times.

My thoughts: Leland could not render a solution for any immediate or simulataneous freeing of the slaves without putting the slaves themselves in grave jeopardy. Where would they go? How would they operate? It seemed large numbers of them would have died of starvation or exposure. Would crippling the southern economy by sudden simulataneous emancipation be to their benefit or to their damage? Leland could not know.

Thus, the last quote in the article finds Leland still pleading with the slave owners to release the slaves (though not necessarily immediately or simulataneously), and until their emancipation, (an admonition to the owners) remember that the owners answer to God for their treatment of the slaves (and used the Scriptures in this regard).

Reading only the words of Leland that the writers used in the article, I do not see the severity of ANTI-abolition sentiment suggested by the writers-—but I would need to read more of the writings or speeches of Leland to which they refer before I make any further determination.

[Cronos]

Some (if not all) of them really do believe that Mary is God's mother,

Ah, the old debate. You presumably prefer calling Mary Christotokos (Mother of Christ), not Theotokos (Mother of God), correct? The argument made for that (by Nestorius) was similar to yours that he thought the latter term (Mother of God) signified that Mary gave birth to the entire Godhead.

The argument made against that was no -- Mary did not give birth to the entire Godhead, but she DID give birth to Christ and in Christ was combined, inexorably, inseparably, both man and God: i.e. you cannot separate Christ the man from Christ the God, they are one and the same. If you deny the term Theotokos, you will inevitably lead to the next logical step that Mary gave birth only to Christ the man and that Christ had two separate natures. This was then used to explain various arguments:
1. That Christ the spirit "descended" (i.e. possessed) the man Jesus at the age of 30 and then left him just before he was crucified (a very mean trick)
2. That Christ the man never existed, but was pure spirit
3. That Christ was just a man working under direction from God the Father.

All of these arguments belie the idea of a Trinity and belie the concept of the divinity of Christ.

you surely do not mean to do that, do you?

And, quite frankly, I don't blame you -- theological words and definitions are complex to you and me too.

[Mr Rogers]

FWIW...Vine’s:

Lack, Lacking [Noun]

husterema denotes
(a) “that which is lacking,” “deficiency, shortcoming” (akin to hustereo, “to be behind, in want”), 1_Cor_16:17; Php_2:30; Col_1:24, RV, “that which is lacking” [AV, “that which is behind” (of the afflictions of Christ)], where the reference is not to the vicarious sufferings of Christ, but to those which He endured previously, and those which must be endured by His faithful servants; 1_Thess_3:10, where “that which is lacking” means that which Paul had not been able to impart to them, owing to the interruption of his spiritual instruction among them;
(b) “need, want, poverty,” Luke_21:4, RV, “want” (AV, “penury”); 2_Cor_8:14 (twice) “want;” 2_Cor_9:12, “wants” (AV, “want”); 2_Cor_11:9, RV, “(the measure of my) want” [AV, “that which was lacking (to me)”]. See BEHIND, PENURY, WANT.

Note: In 1_Thess_4:12, AV, chreia, “need,” is translated “lack” (RV, “need”). See NEED.

See also : husterema in other topics

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/find_term.pl

Look up ‘lacking’ - it is keyed to the ASV

[Cronos]

That is a very erudite piece from M. Belloc — the old idea of Inevitable Fate — that is what the Aryanic religions believed in (Ragnarok, Gotterdamerung etc.) that is what Christianity liberated people from. Also, the idea of “Calvin it was who rendered humility futile and the appetite for wealth a virtue.” — is very, very insightful

[John Leland 1789]

“What I believe to be true about the Catholic Church?

“There is only one truth.

“Enemies of the Catholic Church do not get to decide what Catholics believe.”

---

I undertand what you are saying. If you push this kind of construction, however, many will take you as finding YOUR OWN thoughts and thought-life to be infallible.

So when we say that all you can do is keep posting “what you believe” to be the truth, it is not an attempt to diminuate anything, but it is a recognition that even if you have truth, your own expression of it is not infallible.

[John Leland 1789]

“No Apostles were in Egypt where your bibles originate from...”

---

And it is interesting that in the New Testament itself, Alexandria and Egypt have a generally negative connotation, while Antioch carries a generally postitive connotation. That is a strong witness in and of itself.

[Cvengr]

Those definitions are applicable.

Remember though, Col 1:24 is referencing Paul’s sufferings, not his sacrifice.

In God’s Plan, each of us may have a different portion in His Plan.

Suffering is used in several ways by God in His Plan for us.

Similar to children, suffering is used to gain or redirect our attention, the direction of our thinking. In this fashion it might be used for discipline if we are out of fellowship.

Even while we remain in fellowship with Him, suffering might be used to discipline us in the application and growth and perseverance of faith in Him. It might be used as a method of evidence testing, so that we might provide evidence to others’ presence of how remaining in faith through Him is a winning solution in all problems.

Our Lord Christ Jesus is also a human being with a human spirit, while He is also God, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The suffering we experience in His Plan prepares us to perform per His Plan and where we succeed in the performance of good work through faith in Him (not dead works independent of faith through Him), then He is free to reward us at the bema seat judgment those rewards which were predestined and made in eternity past for us.

Our Lord and Savior provided the Perfect Sacrifice in His blood on the Cross, but He didn’t experience eveery type of human suffering we might experience, because as the second Adam, He didn’t have to experience all forms of suffering in order to still provide the Perfect Sacrifice to redeem us, reconciling man to God and propitiating His wrath in the case of all sin of humanity.

Meanwhile, there may be other suffering in the body, the church, which develops His body in all testing of things God wishes to show all present to glorify the Son.

While salvation may be spoken of in three tenses in Scripture, a past, present, and future tense, referring to how we have been saved from the consequence of our spiritual death from original sin, the present tense of freeing us from the slave market of sin, allowing us to continue to have fellowship with Him, while we are still sinners prior to the first death, and in a future tense, saving us from the consequences of sin in the body and providing us a resurrected body and with eternal life; we nonetheless continue to grow, just as Jesus Christ grew as a human being in His mind, also undergoing different forms of suffering and testing in our lives prior to the first death.

These are fabulous Scriptures in studying soteriology and the work of God the Holy Spirit in this Church Age prior to our eternal state.

[John Leland 1789]

When the day comes that any one on these threads is guilty of violence or vandalism against ANY Church on the basis of what that church believes, I feel very certain that ALL of us would stand in condemnation of it.

Were the perpetrators of the statue vandalism caught? Who were they?

[Cronos]

BTW, That pic looks like it was taken in a huge outdoor worship setting or an arena type huge indoor setting. I think it's wonderful when that many youth will mass together to worship God. PRAISE GOD!

Ha! Right click on that picture and you see that it's from Woodstock. They couldn't have been coming to worship KISS, now could they? :0