Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
If Scripture was self evident, there would be no need of the Church that Jesus so labouriously created. Everything would be obvious.
Two thoughts. I’ll let annalex do the heavy lifting.
I know the crucifix is one of the things that others don’t like about us. But one reason I like it is that it presents the mystery:
Christ is the perfect image of God. An aspect of the atonement which is often overlooked is the “exemplary” side. That is, He shows us what God is, what Love is, etc.
God is powerful. The prefect the supreme representation in creation of His power is a baby in a manger, a man who can’t scratch his nose.
God is in eternal bliss. The perfect representation of that bliss is Weeping over Jerusalem or at the death of a friend or saying “I thirst,” on a cross.
So, if the happiness of the blessed in heaven is God’s happiness shared with them, certainly it will have its compassionate side.
the 2nd: Lewis in the Great Divorce says the blessed have th ACTION of pity, but not the PASSION. They don’t SUFFER Pity, they TAKE pity.
I think these are useful ideas.
The one and only Creator, jealous? Sounds kinda petty. I'd say that He is more worried about us and our souls.
This would then tie in with what Mark said a few posts back, that we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart...mind...and soul...first and formost.
Is there any other meaning to life? How can things get any better for us than to accept Christ completely and get to be in His presence for ever. No rooms or bleacher seats or different rewards in Heaven. Just in His presence forever. Hell is the absence of God.
Heroic virtue doesn't get you into heaven. It indicates that you are richly blessed with the gifts of these virtues to a great degree. The 'canon' of saints is not exclusive. They ones on the canon are just the ones we "know" are in heaven and who are, we deem, worthy of extra whoopee because they are loci and recipients of such wonderful gifts.
Thank you for your questions.
And what gives you the authority to speak for God?
Earlier on this thread we had reference to Isaiah's "My glory I give to no other," and while we think that God does in fact share his glory with all the blessed, there is always going to be that core truth that it is HIS and can only be His.
We are called to be His. If I am also Mary's and Dominic's, it is because they are "in Him," and I am theirs derivatively, as an aspect of my being His.
The relationship with Divine "jealousy" and our Lord's summons to perfection, I think, has to do with half-measures when carried to their eternal result are a failure at monotheism.
Fortunately, we do not have to achieve perfection. But as we grow in Christ we are more and more open to his, so to speak, rearranging our furniture, throwing some of it out and bringing some new pieces in so as to make us perfect.
I imagine caww will disagree and may think what I say impossible and a kind of waffling, and at least in principle he could be right. (you're a 'he', caww?)
But in her way Mary, and in his way Dominic seem to assist, to strengthen, to "brace" me as I try to let Him say and do his self-oblation in and through me. If they didn't, I would have no business monkeying with them.
In any event, I don't have a big problem with Divine "jealousy." In Him alone is our salvation and joy, and at His right hand (and no other's) are pleasures for evermore.
FWIW.
I had one set of great grandparents, and their parents before them, who did not believe in even having photos taken of themselves, because graven images are forbidden in the Bible. They did not celebrate Christmas as anything other than a religious Holy Day.
It was a severe Church, theirs was. No musical instruments in the Church, either, all a capella. Plain hard pews, no adornment, that graven images thing again. They did, however, participate in feet washings. I suppose that could be considered somewhat luxurious to the recipients, lol.
But, they apparently were warm and friendly people, well regarded and respected in their farming community. If being prospered by many children and a very productive, beautiful farm is an indication of favor from God, they had it. The family established that particular Church immediately following the Civil War, after breaking away from the old, original brush arbor meeting on a plantation, that had become a large congregation over the course of the previous century.
They were Primitive Baptists. Others of my family were not; they were members of Lutheran congregations that were originally Dutch Reformed, or had been Moravian all along, since settlement occurred here. The Moravians are quite interesting, historically. They predate the "Protestant" Reformation, exerted quite the profound influence upon the young John Wesley, and brought Christianity to the Cherokee and Creek, going along on the Trail Of Tears with the Cherokee to minister to them and to help them, when their efforts to prevent Removal proved futile.
Just a little history there, a little local color from the 1600's, 1700's and 1800's, in order to put the negativity being directed at those not under the authority of the Vatican in the proper perspective.
All these ancestral lines belonging to various "Protestant" denominations, are eventually Catholic if I go back far enough. Of that I am well aware, and I honor them, too, even though the first documented instance of my English surname occurs in the Templar Inquisition of 1185. I figure if they can get over that, so can I. Everybody makes mistakes, and the Catholic Church in England made some epic ones, as did the Anglican Church that succeeded them.
Mark...What a venture into the world of paintings and portraits I’ve been on...learning Luke was an artist? I didn’t know, but apparently understood so in traditions etc. I still prefer him better as an apostle, from the paintings I saw, he was better at that too.
So many of the Portrait holers claimed they had the first of Lukes..(some things never change.)..and many copied and or added their own renditions. If it indeed was Lukes at all.
Not sure I believe any were his though, at least those in possesion today. But then that is how traditions come and go. People add, or take away, or even discard til the next generation. But Jesus did warn us about the traditions of men aas you know.
Therefor...some may want a portrait of an artists work, from the old masters or otherwise the local catholic shop, in their homes to admire and or bow to, that somehow unites them to that individual who is gone. I’ll stick with faith ....”Blessed are those who believe without seeing”.. and His word...”became flesh and dwelt among us.”
We ARE called to be His. Every one of us. He gives us what we need in order to come to Him.
Yes, the first Christians were in the upper room at Pentecost...but they were first ‘called’ Christians in Antioch, Syria or Turkey pending on the age you are looking at.
That’s my understanding and construction on reality.
I remember being forced to go to mass or something with the rest of the class. there was a nun who chanted and the kids responded. She'd get up and down and the kids followed her lead. I know now what a missal is, but I never saw one used. When I asked the kids what they were doing, they just said "Do what the nun does". It was all a mystery to us
I can imagine Christ exalting in the empty tomb or a symbol thereof.
I can imagine Christ exalting in an empty cross.
It’s hard to impossible for me to imagine Him exalting in an image of Himself still on a cross.
And that’s quite apart from the talisman/ superstitious stuff that Prottys and Roman Catholics et al both can get all layered on either one.
Any online links to purported Luke paintings?
The verse you cite is: “4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift...11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry”
Hmmm...don’t think anyone has a problem with Christ giving spiritual gifts as appropriate for the church.
“So if the Father wants all men saved.. why does He give more grace to some than others?”
If you want all the answers, you may need to ask someone wiser than I. However, Matthew 25 has the parable of the talents, or moneybags, since a talent was a measure of worth.
I think it is risky to pull much doctrine from parables, but notice: “15To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability.” Barnes, a predestinationalist, says, “The design of the parable is to teach that those who improve their talents or faculties in the cause of religion— who improve them to their own salvation, and in doing good to others —shall be proportionally rewarded. But they who neglect their talents, and neither secure their own salvation nor do good to others, will be punished...According as he saw each one was adapted to improve it. So in the church and the world. God gives men stations which he judges them adapted to fill, and requires them to fill them. So he makes distinctions among men in regard to abilities, and in the powers and opportunities of usefulness; requiring them only to occupy those stations, and discharge their duties there”.
And Paul seems to indicate we are judged by what we were given, not by what we were not: “14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” - Romans 2
“Why does He not give enough drawing grace so all men without exception have an honest shot to come????”
Maybe he does. “ 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” - Romans 1
But my approach, at its worst, is no worse off than the PD argument at its best, since PD has God forcing men to reject or accept him. And it keeps grace as grace, not ‘common grace’ damning, or ‘special grace” saving. I’ve found many passages speaking of God’s grace, but none speaking of it coming in different flavors, with one flavor damning and another rescuing!
It also has ‘hardening’ - or callous-building - as something a man deserves, rather than God acting capriciously. And it is consistent with our own ability to harden our hearts to the Holy Spirit.
But in the end, God’s grace doesn’t force a man to believe or not, for we are given a choice by God. That is why we read, “ 14 “Now therefore fear the LORD and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” - Joshua 24
“So are you a Wesleyan?”
Baptist. I read my first sermon by Wesley last night.
..(If we make idols he is jealous)...
..(sounds kinda petty)....
Think bigger Mark...bigger than concerned or worried, much much bigger. If He says He is a Jealous God than He is what He says He is... or He is a liar.
Like all his other attributes they are beyond are limited understanding. The point is of course...to maintain our relationship with Him on a one to one basis....aside from idols.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Very, very interesting Reg,... (no offense just shortened version)
I am amazed you can follow your family tree so far. Mine was lost somewhere between Scottish/Irish deccent, but I appears more Scottish than Irish.
But to follow the faiths of your family line is astouding. How fortunate you are. Thank you... as I go to re-read your post again.
“In fact the perspicuity makes one wonder why there are people getting degrees and studying Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and all that.”
“All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all (2 Pet. 3:16); yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them (Ps. 119:105, 130).”
I may debate the meaning of grace & election, but I was saved 35 years ago with reference to neither. I didn’t need to define grace, just experience it!
“Evangelicals believe that Scripture is comprehensible enough so that, with the aid of the Holy Spirit and by using a sound hermeneutic that allows Scripture to interpret itself, anyone who desires to do so can understand God’s message. This being true, all Christians should have unrestricted access to God’sWord in his or her own language.”
Much more here: http://www.monergism.com/The%20Perspicuity%20of%20Scripture%20by%20Gerry%20Breshears.pdf
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