Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
You found the Scripture perspicuous in that Caiaphas said it, you judged that he really meant ill, and concluded that he was a malefactor. These are matters that were clear to you.
Why then are you not at liberty in Catholicism to interpret all of Scripture for yourself?
Now for the highly educated or those who have desire, they can surely find volumes and volumes of how to's and why for's in the catholic faith. Enough I would think to quite easily distract from the centrality of Christ.
BTW..I recall you also mentioning, on another post, we are intended to enjoy God when we arrive in heaven...when on issues of rewards. I believe there will be rewards also...but not in the manner we view rewards. Not a pecking order so to speak. But you stating of us enjoying Him fully was great to see..I think so too. Everything else will seem pale...as it should.
What level of independent interpretation is necessary to know that Caiaphas was a malefactor and how does that differ from the position of the Catholic Church?
Thanks for the enlightening link.
Behold, the Whore of the Reformation.
We stipulate the OT prohibition against idols. We stipulate we have images. We deny that the OT word "idol" fits our images. You fail to show it.
You claim against the ecumenical resolution of the iconoclastic controversy, that we are burdened to show that we are right.
We say that just as the Church was empowered to allow uncircumcised Christians, it is also empowered to allow images. This was all gone over more than 1000 years ago. Your side lost. That doesn't mean you have any standing to restart the debate de novo, and you haven't shown that you have standing.
The problem is that even though there is Biblical precedent for ecumenical councils unfolding doctrine, you want veto power. You are in a position analogous to that of the Judaizers after the Council of Jerusalem.
You claim to follow Scripture. You do not see in Scripture the denial that one can be a Christian without being in the Church.
I suppose that is debatable, but your side does not have a slam dunk on the question.
Even that is too kind a description of Steve Wohlberg. He is a self promoting rabid anti-Catholic hate monger. He would be an ideal candidate for Reichbishop, but should not be accepted as credible by any real Christian. That source tells us all a lot about the level of accuracy and credibility required by Dr. E.
Exodus is not specific, but it certainly indicates it. Read through the next 5 chapters. It is fascinating and describes the Ark or the sanctuary of the Lord and its construction and materials, which some of the Reformed have violently objected to when constructed in a Catholic church.
But Mark, these instructions were given to the Israelites. and as you know the temple etc. all it’s furnishings etc. for shadowed Christ in the new testatment, under the new covenant.
I think some are asking why idols/images are required or necessary today, of saints and the like, since we are under the new covenant which Christ fulfilled all of the old requirements.
Ridiculous. The Ark was so holy that no one, not even the Levite priests looked upon it. Whenever it went out among the people it was covered in heavy cloth and shielded from view.
It was uncovered in the inner sanctum and every High Priest who went into the inner sanctum, had to be pure before the Lord or he was struck dead. He used to have a rope attached to him so the priests could pull him out if this happened.
Can you even imagine the fear they must have felt then? I wonder did any actually die? I don’t offhand recall that. But also imagine being one of the priests outside with the rope in your hand,just in case....Hard to be a Priest back then I think..despite the honors bestowed.
Then we are on a level of understanding. My wife's family (and to a certain extent my extended family) are rather poorly catechized as well and would not survive a debate here with many of those whom I regularly converse with. It disturbs me greatly. And I appreciate you posting the fact that you are disturbed as well with this level of ignorance of doctrinal matters.
But it does seem to be a difficult thing to understand all that there is in the catholic faith...it is not for the average citizen to understand as I see it.
The central tenets are not difficult; uneducated Greek peasants (to use Kolo's grandparents' example) are able to understand what is correct in the Faith and what is not. But yes, the Faith is very rich and very deep. We have had numerous Ecumenical Councils over the millennia which have added to the Faith and a great number of Church Fathers who have also contributed greatly.
Now for the highly educated or those who have desire, they can surely find volumes and volumes of how to's and why for's in the catholic faith. Enough I would think to quite easily distract from the centrality of Christ.
This is a human problem and not a doctrinal one. A person can always find himself distracted from Christ by something or other. Given Pat Robertson's conduct over the last week, I think that he, unburdened by Catholic theology has demonstrated distraction. Rick Warren and Joel Osteen demonstrate distraction, as well.
BTW..I recall you also mentioning, on another post, we are intended to enjoy God when we arrive in heaven
The two Commandments of Jesus kinda sum it up pretty well.
Matthew 22: 19 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them [a scholar of the law] 20 tested him by asking, 36 "Teacher, 21 which commandment in the law is the greatest?" 37 He said to him, 22 "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 The second is like it: 23 You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
And God, who is already loving us, will have us in a place where there is no diminishment or dilution of that love. No distractions of our earthly abode. Just us in the company of God forevermore.
Everything else will seem pale...as it should.
Is it possible to improve on perfection?
Yes, I’m sure some died. We know from the bible not all priests performed perfectly. The Ark was separated from the people by curtains and veils, partitions, badger skin, other animal skins, layers of gold and jewels, all kinds of things. Even when it was captured the opposite side had to beg Israel to take it back.
(”Given Pat Robertson’s conduct over the last week, I think that he, unburdened by Catholic theology has demonstrated distraction. Rick Warren and Joel Osteen demonstrate distraction, as well.”)
Yes, I have some problems with these characters as well. Although I give them a little space since all do preach Christ..how be it, as you said, they do indeed distract from Christ with all the puff and fluff, not to mention they seem to me more motivational speakers. Still, Christianity gets lost among it all. But people do “feel good” about themselves I understand, after hearing these guys. Which is what a lot of people look for now.
Not for me, not my style,...too little meat. Too much fluff. Candy Men might say it best. Not nutritional.
Even when it was captured the opposite side had to beg Israel to take it back.
I liked that story...great meaning behind it. but (chuckle) they thought they could get God’s blessings by having Israels images and their ark..
Exactly, good point
I wouldn’t say that they are required. However; for example, St. Luke wrote the first icon of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Was that wrong? The very first one that we know of was written by what we call the author of one Gospel and Acts and was a disciple of Paul. That tradition has been handed down for 2000 years. At what point, do we say that it needs to go away.
We Christians are a community. The Communion of Saints is a part of the Christian community, even though they have passed on to the Judgement of Christ. The Nicene Creed confirms this.
Says you, a mere man. Scripture is scripture, no denying the word of God.
It was uncovered in the inner sanctum and every High Priest who went into the inner sanctum, had to be pure before the Lord or he was struck dead. He used to have a rope attached to him so the priests could pull him out if this happened.
Well, did the High Priest pray in front of it?
Which words of God have you posted on this matter?
I doubt even he could see it through the cloud that covered it, but he did the prescribed ceremony for the atonement.
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