Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
“God continually “works all things according to the counsel of his will” (Eph. 1:11). God’s will is the ultimate reason for everything that happens.”
Good grief! How blind can someone be!
This has NOTHING to do with the FW/PD debate. If FW exists, it exists because God wills it. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t because God wills it.
The debate is not over the sovereignty of God, but over WHAT God’s will is.
You write, “But Rome is wrong. Faith is a result of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, not a requirement for it. Of course we must believe in order to be saved, but that belief is God-given.”
First, while I regularly debate with Catholics, I do so from love. So if Catholics tell me they resent being called “Rome” or “RC”, then I don’t call them that. Maybe it is that free will thing popping up in me, but I want to convince them IN LOVE, not IN SPITE. Spitting in someone’s face is NOT the way to share the truth in love!
Paul wrote, “19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.” - 1 Cor 9
Paul seems to think his approach has some impact on acceptance, which is a point in favor of free will. In either case, Paul wants to make sure he doesn’t get in the way of the Gospel message. In Chapter 10, “32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.”
I cannot stop anyone from using terms meant to hurt, annoy, or inflame, but I can certainly tell someone that God doesn’t approve of that behavior.
Second, I’m not interested in philosophical assertions. Teach me from scripture. “Faith is a result of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, not a requirement for it.” Nice assertion. However:
“8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10
Paul proclaims the “word of faith”. And what does Paul say happens? “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Not, “If God regenerates you, and you are born again, you will receive faith and then believe and be saved.” Paul presents it as a choice, not a compulsion.
You suggest we are born again BEFORE we are justified, for it says, “For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” But you say we must be born again to believe.
We are born again when we receive the Holy Spirit! THAT is the mark of a Christian! “You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.” - Romans 8
“13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.” - Romans 8
Without the Holy Spirit, we are not born again. How did JESUS define being born again? Not by being splashed with water, but “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
The new birth IS the Holy Spirit in us! THEN we are justified, for only THEN do we cease to be rebels against God and become sons!
You wrote, “You can agree with Rome all you want - that our good work of faith is what saves us.”
What does JESUS say? The Jews asked him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus replied, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
My goodness! John Calvin agrees...the ‘work of faith’ is the ‘work’ God requires of us, although Jesus was being a bit sarcastic in calling it a ‘work’. I may disagree with Calvin on some things, but he tries to be honest about this. Faith isn’t a ‘work’ at all, yet Jesus presents it as a ‘work’ because this is what WE must do.
Scripture doesn’t leave this open for debate. It explicitly teaches that WE are to believe. Jesus doesn’t say, “There is no work for you to do”, although he is sarcastic in calling faith work. He doesn’t say, “God will give you belief...or not!”
You cite 1 Peter 2: 8, but the full sentence includes verse 7:
“7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.”
You focus on “destined”, but does that mean the individual was predestined by God and compelled not to believe, or does it mean they were predestined to make choices, knowing full well that many would reject Christ, but even that rejection is within God’s plan - as the pains of childbirth are part of the plan of a mother...at least, the second time through.
And meanwhile, 7 has, “So the honor is for you who believe” - once again demonstrating that believing is something we do...no “honor” for doing what one cannot avoid. And of course, anyone who accepts God’s offer is NOT going to be puffed up with pride. A man deeply in debt doesn’t swell up with pride when someone else pays the debt.
However, it seems to me a fair number of PDs take a lot of pride in ‘winning life’s lottery’, and looking down on those who just weren’t chosen by God for glory. Tsk-tsk!
You write, “God does more than merely “see” the past and future. He “declares the end from the beginning.”
I’m not entirely sure God is ‘outside’ time...that is another debate. However, someone who knows the end from the beginning can declare it just as easily and truly as someone who compels the end.
FWIW, I’ll close this rant with a quote from John MacArthur:
Question
I wanted your opinion on a specific doctrine that you hear both teachings. You hear the free-will doctrine verses the election doctrine as far as salvation is concerned. And, I wanted your thoughts on that.
Answer
Everybody in this room believes in predestination if they believe the Bible. Right? How many of you believe the Bible? You believe the Bible? That is good! God help the rest of you. You are either slow or heretics, I do not know which.
All right, everybody believes the Bible, right? Then you believe in predestination. You say, “No, I was raised a Methodist.” I don’t care what you were raised, you believe in predestination, if you believe the Bible, because in Ephesians 1, it says, He predestined us before the foundation of the world. It says in Revelation, He has written our names in the Lamb’s Book of Life from before the foundation of the world. It uses the word predestination. Everyone believes in that, who believes the Bible. God predetermined who would be saved. Before they were ever born. That’s in the Bible. You believe it. So, just accept that you believe it. Now, was not that easy? Absolutely painless. You believe that.
The Bible also says, “Whosoever will may come. Him who cometh to me I will in no wise cast out? You believe that? Okay. So, you believe that, too. So, you believe in man’s volition. Free will is not a biblical term, because man’s will isn’t really free. It is bound by sin.
When you became a Christian, did you say to yourself, “Oh! I am elect! I think, I’ll get saved.” No. No, you made a decision, didn’t you? You made a choice.
So, the Bible teaches God’s predestining plan, God’s electing plan. It says that over and over, “elect” according to the foreknowledge of God, “elect” in Him. You know, I have many people in that city, he said, you know, in the book of Acts who weren’t even saved, yet, but they were already considered His people because they were elect. So, you believe all of that. Then, you believe in man’s choice as well. So, you believe both of those things.
The problem is not whether you believe those. The problem is how you harmonize them, right? You know how you harmonize them? No, you don’t. You don’t know how to harmonize them. Because there is no way to harmonize them. And, the way that I like to illustrate it is this, Is Jesus God or man? Both. Is He all man? 100 % man? 100 % God? How can He be 200 %? It is a paradox. Who wrote Romans? Paul wrote Romans? God wrote Romans. They alternated verses? Who wrote Romans? Was it Paul’s words from his vocabulary and his heart? Was every word inspired by the Spirit of God? How could every single word come out of the mind of God, and yet, Paul feel that every single word came out of his own heart? You know what is going to happen if you try to synthesize those things? Okay. You know what happened in the early church councils? They got so confused and said, “Okay, he is half God and half man.” And, you know what you have got when you have half God and half man? Nothing. What is half a man? There is no such thing. What is half a God? A nothing. So they come up with heresy. So, on the one hand they said he is all deity and the idea that he was a physical being is just a phantom. And, they came up with a phantom view. And the others said, “No. He was all man, and he is not deity at all. Because they tried to resolve it, they came up with heresy every time. They either said he is all God and not man, or all man and not God, or half and half, and that is a nothing. You have to leave the paradox.
Now, when you come to the writing of the Bible, some say that it can’t be all Paul and all the Holy Spirit, so Paul just wrote what the Holy Spirit told him, and it all really the Holy Spirit. Is that true? You have just eliminated the Pauline authorship. But, on the other hand, if you say, “It is all Paul, like the liberals do and none of the Holy Spirit.” Then, you have eliminated God.
Let me ask you another question. Who lives your Christian life? Who? Do you? Do you? I hope you do. Is it just you out there living it up? “Not I, but,” what? “Christ liveth in me. Nevertheless,” what? “I live. Yet, not I, but Christ.” Well, if it is all Christ, then I become a quietist: “Let go and let God.” And, you have that movement. On the other hand, if you say, “It’s me,” I become a pietist and a legalist. You just have to handle both and leave them in a paradox.
When it comes down to the whole area of sovereignty and will, you got to leave them where they are. And, as soon as you try to resolve them, you get all of the Calvinists who run over to this end of the seesaw and start screaming, “sovereignty, sovereignty! (bang) And, down goes the scale, right? And, they got God doing everything. One guy came to me one day and said, “God even makes you sin.” That is the ultimate...and, then on the other hand, you have got the Armenians who say, “No, no, no, it is all us, it is all us, it is all us.” And, if it is all us, folks, we are really in trouble. Why don’t you leave it alone?
Then you have the Baptists. Oh, the Baptists. And, the Baptists come together in the middle and they say, “Well, it is a little bit of predestination and a little bit of free will. You see, God looks down the road and He says, “Oh, that is what they are going to do. I see, so that is what I will choose...” No! Just leave it alone.
So, the best way to solve that problem is to believe both and let God resolve it. Now, if you could resolve all those problems, you would be God. And, then there would be other problems we have to deal with.
Now, let me tell you something. One of the greatest marks of the inspiration of the scripture is the fact that it has those incomprehensible paradoxes. Because, if a man or men had written that book, they never would have, number one, conceived them; number two, they never would have left them there. They would have resolved them. The fact that they are there and they stand all over the place in the Bible is one of the truest proofs that God of an infinite mind far beyond our own wrote those things. And, the very fact that there are those irreconcilable apparent paradoxes in scripture speaks of divine authorship. God understands how they harmonize. We don’t. And, that means God has a greater mind than we do. Aren’t you glad about that?
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-Q-11.htm
God has invited us to dance - or called us to a wedding feast, if you prefer:
“1And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’ 5But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11”But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14For many are called, but few are chosen.” - Matt 22
FWIW - Barnes comments on the closing:
Verse 11. A man which had not on a wedding garment. Anciently, kings and princes were accustomed to make presents of changes of raiment to their friends and favourites, to refuse to receive which was an expression of highest contempt, Genesis 14:22; 2 Kings 10:22; Esther 6:8; 8:16. It was, of course, expected that such garments would be worn when they came into the presence of the benefactor. The garments worn on festival occasions were chiefly long white robes; and it was the custom of the person who made the feast to prepare such robes to be worn by the guests. This renders the conduct of this man more inexcusable. He came in his common ordinary dress, as he was taken from the highway; and though he had not a garment of his own suitable for the occasion, yet one had been provided for him, if he had applied for it. His not doing it was expressive of the highest disrespect for the king. This beautifully represents the conduct of the hypocrite in the church. A garment of salvation might be his, wrought by the hands of the Saviour, and dyed in his blood. But the hypocrite chooses the filthy rags of his own righteousness, and thus offers the highest contempt for that provided in the gospel. He is to blame, not for being invited; not for coming, if he would come—for he is freely invited; but for offering the highest contempt to the King of Zion, in presenting himself with all his filth and rags, and in refusing to be saved in the way provided in the gospel.
Thank God you're not describing the Catholic Church.
Nor did I claim it is.
Good thing I never claimed it is.
God so ordained FOR HIS PURPOSES...read your bible
“First, while I regularly debate with Catholics, I do so from love.”
That is often evident in your posts.
“It’s all God’s doing, from start to finish.”
Amen Dr. E.
Anything contributed by the sinful soul to salvation is an insult to Christ and His sufficient sacrifice. Thus, there is no need for penance (though we do repent), for purgatory (Christ paid it all), or surplus merit of the saints (the sinful soul brings nothing to salvation).
No wonder the Shorter Catechism, and even the Longer Catechism are still shorter than the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Protestant Catechisms are all about what Christ does, not what we do.
“Anything contributed by the sinful soul to salvation is an insult to Christ and His sufficient sacrifice.”
Suppose you are deeply in debt - $220,000! You are about to be wiped out financially. A man offers to pay your debt. You say, “Thank you”! The man writes a check for $220,000 to the bank.
Who paid the debt?
Another man is also $220,000 in debt. The same man who paid your debt offers to pay his. But this man shouts, “How dare you! I can stand on my own two feet!” The bank repossess the man’s house & all his other property.
Was HIS debt paid? If not, why not?
Do you doubt what Paul says? Is not the Bible the infallible word of God?
We believe that Gods grace is so winsome and drawing that man can not resist it.. God does not send hollow grace..
It is Gods grace working in us that produces good works, not the other way around..
Performing good works does not give you grace.. on the other hand Gods grace produces a desire to preform the works He has ordained for us to do.
It is the grace of God working in us that produces in us a desire to become more Christ like..
Works men do to win grace have no value to God, He calls them filthy rags..the only works that please him are His works in us
Think seriously about this scripture
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Think of it..this man had done many GOOD works in the name of Christ..yet Christ never even knew him.. this was never a child of God..just one trying to earn the title
The Catechism is 825 pages. The ICR is 1800 pages.
So please tell us why a man having an offer of grace and favor, one that would pay all his debt for him, and even place him in the family of the king would refuse that offer?
What makes on man say yes and another no?
Is the one that says yes smarter? more clever? more spiritual? what does the yes sayer have that the other man does not have?
“Is not the Bible the infallible word of God? We believe that Gods grace is so winsome and drawing that man can not resist it.. God does not send hollow grace..”
“The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” - John 1
“51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?” - Acts 7
I stand by what I wrote.
God does not work in immobility, but with our aliveness in Him.
I never once said that that our works produce grace. You are saying it. I didn’t. I clearly called them a response to grace.
I don’t doubt what Paul says. You are questioning me as if you assume that I do doubt.
I’ve discovered on these forums that many make assumptions about the beliefs and worship of others, rather than rejoicing that the other has found grace and peace in Christ Jesus.
We Catholics are frequently told to “Repent”.
That’s audacious and condescending—to say the least.
That never happened. The fact is that historically, 95%+ of the population was illiterate and most local and regional languages and dialects had no written language. The Latin of the Church and the Bible was the lingua franca.
“So please tell us why a man having an offer of grace and favor, one that would pay all his debt for him, and even place him in the family of the king would refuse that offer?”
Pride.
“51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?” - Acts 7
Barnes on Matt 22:
“Verse 11. A man which had not on a wedding garment. Anciently, kings and princes were accustomed to make presents of changes of raiment to their friends and favourites, to refuse to receive which was an expression of highest contempt, Genesis 14:22; 2 Kings 10:22; Esther 6:8; 8:16. It was, of course, expected that such garments would be worn when they came into the presence of the benefactor. The garments worn on festival occasions were chiefly long white robes; and it was the custom of the person who made the feast to prepare such robes to be worn by the guests. This renders the conduct of this man more inexcusable. He came in his common ordinary dress, as he was taken from the highway; and though he had not a garment of his own suitable for the occasion, yet one had been provided for him, if he had applied for it. His not doing it was expressive of the highest disrespect for the king. This beautifully represents the conduct of the hypocrite in the church. A garment of salvation might be his, wrought by the hands of the Saviour, and dyed in his blood. But the hypocrite chooses the filthy rags of his own righteousness, and thus offers the highest contempt for that provided in the gospel. He is to blame, not for being invited; not for coming, if he would come—for he is freely invited; but for offering the highest contempt to the King of Zion, in presenting himself with all his filth and rags, and in refusing to be saved in the way provided in the gospel.”
“Is the one that says yes smarter? more clever? more spiritual? what does the yes sayer have that the other man does not have?”
“10And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. 11And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” - Matt 9
” 36 One of the Pharisees asked him to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee’s house and took his place at the table. 37 And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was reclining at table in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment, 38and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head and kissed his feet and anointed them with the ointment. 39Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner.” 40And Jesus answering said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he answered, “Say it, Teacher.”
41”A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” 43Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.” 44Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?” 50And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” - Luke 7
“14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.” - Romans 10
Luther wrote: “The first duty of a preacher of the Gospel is, through his revealing of the law and of sin, to rebuke and to turn into sin everything in life that does not have the Spirit and faith in Christ as its base. Thereby he will lead people to a recognition of their miserable condition, and thus they will become humble and yearn for help.”
Prior to the invention of the printing press (and actually for a generation or so afterwards) there was simply no reason for the average person to be literate. Books simply were not available and when they were, the cost to buy them exceeded what a person could earn in a lifetime.
Luther’s Reformation began a few decades after the printing press was invented, without this he never could have succeeded.
The ONLY Bibles the Church ever banned were unapproved translations. As soon as it became obvious that technology would allow for more people to own Bibles, efforts began to translate Scripture.
Nah, Cathlicks are banned from reading McDonald signs on Friday. Big Macs are banned on macaroni days.
What are you talking about? The Bible was written in English and everyone could read and write.
I have.. I just can't find the part where it says God created evil for the purpose of ordaining evil.
My Bible says God is all goodness and there is no darkness in Him
God is light, and there is no darkness in Him, (I John i, 5)
I will show thee all good (Exod. xxxiii, 19).
Far from God impiety, and iniquity from the Almighty (Job xxxiv, 10).
Does the calvinists god believe that God's goodness ordained and limited Hitler to Kill only 6 million Jews instead of more?
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