Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Calvin took the same logic as karma to explain his predestination
Thanks for your kind reply.
Or He could have left us as the beasts of the field, in invincible ignorance, absent the fruit of the tree of knowledge, unaware of the difference between good and evil. We were given the burden of this knowledge for a reason and that reason is intertwined with our path to salvation.
I still think that the best analogy I’ve ever heard that fits my own understanding and speculations about the Scriptural evidence was that provided by Dr Walter Martin . . .
who said . . . essentially . . .
imagine a computer as large as the universe . . .
all possible choices of all possible organisms are programmed into the computer.
From the level of the individual organism . . .
FROM THE
****PERSPECTIVE****
OF THE INDIVIDUAL ORGANISM:
evidently
aparently and in a real sense
existentially
each individual organism has an enormous DEGREE of FREE WILL. Not ultimate infinite free will—he cannot defy gravity without extraordinary help or machines . . . still . . . a large DEGREE of FREE WILL.
HOWEVER, the programmer, God, also has, in His case, more or less—for all practical purposes, infinite free will.
He can adjust the programming and/or any component to achieve HIS PRECISE WILL.
And, given that He IS God . . . He DOES KNOW the tendencies of each organism FULL WELL.
I suppose we could ask . . .
Just to add interest to the . . . game . . . or . . . the boot camp training rulers and reigners with Christ . . .
COULD God . . . MIGHT God . . .
hide from Himself . . .
somewhat as a Father might hide from himself . . . the details of a surprise that he knew his 5 year old son was going to give him on his birthday . . . as a kind of gift to his 5 year old . . . to really be able to enlarge daddy’s joy in the surprise aspect of the gift?
I don’t know. It’s an interesting question, to me. And, I think it has the potential of bearing on the issue of FREE WILL.
We don’t know the exact mechanics of God’s omniscience. We know it’s plenty thorough.
Still, there are some curious Scriptures on that score.
We as finite cannot well conceive of TIMELESSNESS.
In this room or section of Heaven . . . time is of the sort XYZ. In that room, it’s of the sort ONML. In that room over there, it’s of the sort CBA. And in that room over there, of the sort WVUTS. And in that area over there—there’s no time whatsoever.
How do we wrap our minds around that?
Similarly, I think it’s arrogant foolishness to think that we are going to comprehend fully and precisely the BIBLICAL ASSERTIONS ABOUT FREE WILL AND PREDESTINATION.
In a sense, on that issue, God is saying—There is time AND there is NOT TIME . . . knowing we won’t have much of a clue as to what He’s going on about.
To Him, evidently, they are facets of the same diamond.
To our finiteness, they are mutually exclusive.
It’s not a problem TO HIM.
. . . PERHAPS . . .
akin to as an observent, wise parent knows the hurtful mistake the child is headed for . . .
and knows that love dictates not preventing it . . .
yet the parent certainly does not force the mistake, either.
Thank you all so much for sharing your testimonies!
The spiritual man, regenerated by God's grace, is likewise aware of good and evil, and now has the will, desire and ability to choose good.
You can agree with Rome all you want - that our good work of faith is what saves us.
But Rome is wrong. Faith is a result of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, not a requirement for it. Of course we must believe in order to be saved, but that belief is God-given. As Paul asks, who made us to differ and what do we have that we were not given?
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear shibumi!
The Catholic Church has a lot to say about faith:
Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.
Through the centuries, in so many languages, cultures, peoples and nations, the Church has constantly confessed this one faith, received from the one Lord, transmitted by one Baptism, and grounded in the conviction that all people have only one God and Father.
Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an assent of the intellect and will to the self-revelation God has made through his deeds and words.
"To believe" has thus a twofold reference: to the person, and to the truth: to the truth, by trust in the person who bears witness to it.
We must believe in no one but God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Faith is a supernatural gift from God. In order to believe, man needs the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.
"Believing" is a human act, conscious and free, corresponding to the dignity of the human person.
"Believing" is an ecclesial act. The Church's faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. "No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother" (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).
We believe all "that which is contained in the word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church proposes for belief as divinely revealed" (Paul VI, CPG # 20).
Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16).
"Faith is a foretaste of the knowledge that will make us blessed in the life to come" (St. Thomas Aquinas. Comp. theol. 1, 2).
And who withholds the rain and nutrients and sunlight from the rocky soil where nothing good grows?
God creates the soil, all kinds, and thus God determines where the seed of Scripture will take root.
It's all God's doing, from start to finish.
Free will and predestination are my favorite topics, and I'm really behind in reading the posts. Too many rocks recently. 8~)
Yep.
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." -- Jeremiah 10:23
we are dancing BECAUSE HE caused us to be born again.
Without Him reaching down and touching us first and turning our hearts from stone to flesh, without Him putting flesh back on our bones we would be quite happy dancing for Satan.
Now, because God called us, we respond by dancing.
Our new hearts are not capable of doing anything else.
Amen!
We are saved by Christ's righteousness and not our own.
Of course. And who repents? Only those whom God has given the ability and desire and will to repent.
"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" -- 2 Timothy 2:25" "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" -- Romans 2:4
Amen!
I remember the first time I read Colossians 1 and I was struck by the understanding that until that time I didn't really understand the "why" of anything.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -- Col. 1:13-17"(God) who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
"All things."
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.