Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Mad Dawg]

So what God wills or does is GOOD.

I love the old dances the best. The next step in this one is:

Is it good because God wills it, or does God will it because it's good?

[Forest Keeper]

Thank you very much for that comment, MD. I really appreciate it. If there must be disagreement I would much rather have it be between the actual beliefs of the parties rather than the characterizations of those beliefs by each of the other, which are often exaggerated or flat out wrong. All sides have done it of course.

[Cronos]

Sorry holds no water...Job is Old test. Christ had not even been born yet to intercede. Gesh!

The reply was to Blue-duncan's post #2296: "How do you interpret Job 2:5-7, “But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.”" which was bd's response to post #2279 What a fabulous repudiation of Christianity. "Satan is a tool of God". This is certain a reasonable illustration of the evil of Calvinism and of its satanic origins. This belief removes all responsibility of satan for his own actions from him, and also for all those who follow him. To believe this would require removal of what, 90-95% of all Scriptural verse, and nearly all Gospel verse altogether. How can you guys call yourself Christians if you believe that God uses Satan as a tool? which in turn was a response to post #2056 by RnMomof7: Satan is a tool in the hand of God..he can not act without the permission of God...read your bible


So, blue-duncan referenced OT to talk about whether God commands Satan as per Calvinistic beliefs. So, the reference to the OT was for Calvinist beliefs, hence Mark can, by rules of debate, also use OT as an example.


SEcondly, the point is about an intercessor to pray for you to God. God tells Job's friends that they must ask JOB to pray for them to God (i.e. they need him in addition to praying to God directly).

[Cronos]

NL: Actually, Muslims say that there is but one God, the God of Abraham. Their name for the one God is Allah.

Uri: How do they trace themselves back to Abraham ?

They say that Ishmael is the ancestor of Mo and the Nejd Arabian bedouin tribes. They say that HAgar and Ishmael went to what is now Mecca and the place where they found water is now the well Zam-Zam. Also, they say that Abraham came to Mecca and laid the foundations of the Ka'aba (the big black box tent they worship)

[Cronos]

My suggestion to you is to post another thread from your side that rebuts the Protestant arguments of a two-fold grace of justification and sanctification and we can discuss those arguments.

Incorrect, this is an excellent post to talk about whether you believe in predestination or not, we've already started and we're learning about the way this is interpreted by Catholics, Orthodox, Calvinist-Presbyterians, Baptists, Pentecostals (no, wait, Quix, you haven't told us if you believe in predestination as a pentecostal), etc. so is a great place to discuss this issue of predestination/karma/destiny.

[Forest Keeper]

The only family unity they believe in is an invisible Church here on earth with no authority and many beliefs- This makes up a pretty dysfunctional family.

Oh, come on. :) We think of our local churches as families and we're pretty good about doing the fellowship thing. Our earthly authority is the scriptures, and I will certainly grant that some submit to that authority more than others. But I think that's true in all faiths, isn't it?

[Cronos]

So, do you consider your Presbyterian group to be part of the One Apostolic and Catholic Church?

[Cronos]

Through harmonizing Scripture. Protestants do not disagree that we will be judged by our works but those judgements do not effect our justification rather our reward.

Really? Is that what all Protestants believe? That you will be judged by your good works and that will determine where you go?

[Cronos]

The post you linked to refers to the Oriental Churchs: Copts, etc. with whom orthodoxy disagreed over the words homousis (can’t remember the Greek word). This is NOT referring to the Orthodox.

[Mad Dawg]

Thank YOU!

I know this could be maybe just my preoccupation, but let me rant a little here:

One of the reasons I like Aquinas in particular and what somebody called "philosophical theology" in general is that sooner or later we have to start looking at what it means to try to talk about God. Aquinas addresses this pretty early in his work.

I guess we also have to think about the relationship between the Bible and talking about God. And I don't think it's a no-brainer.

The Bible is so rich! But the kind of thing it does is, well, hard to nail down. What IS, say, Isaiah 55 (I mean other than beautiful?) What kind of conclusions can be drawn, what argument made from it? And how peculiar, really, to wrest a verse or two from this poem and wave it around and say, "See there?"

There is a kind of inversion that happens in one's thinking about God. We say, "God is a Father, THE Father," and because we know something about fathers, that statement conveys meaning about God. It informs and directs our thought and influences how we read other statements about God.

But somewhere in there, the inversion happens and we begin to realize that our side, so to speak, of the comparisons is derivative and vague and that we learn what Fatherhood is from contemplating God, whose REALITY or (sort of) 'intensity of being' overwhelms the provisional and confused notions we form from our experiences.

Skipping a few steps here, and I ask you to remember it's been decades since I really immersed myself in Calvin, my criticism of Calvin would be that maybe he forgets that God will not be comprehended by our images and language. And consequently he is more rigid in his logical unfolding of his system than the nature of God allows.

That criticism in similar ways ought to apply to any theologian, though I think that what Aquinas is doing is very different from what Calvin is doing.

It is a good thing to try to have answers for the question, "But what do you mean by that?" But it is also critical to remember that thinking and talking about God, while fine things, things He blesses, things which can lead others to know His love, they are derivative and not as important as talking TO (and listening to) God. That while what we think must inform how we conduct our side of the relationship, it is not God as we think Him to be but God as he knows Himself to be who is master and whose mastery we must acknowledge.

ONE of the reasons I unburden myself of this rant is that I THINK that these notions might help us to be more charitable and patient in dealing with one another's conversation about God.

Calvin, a sinner like me and like me not necessarily aware of all his motives, is giving it his best sinful shot. So also Aquinas. So you and so me. And it might be important to consider that maybe not all of us are called to be theologians.

That we think it important enough to justify burning all this energy seems to me to suggest that God is definitely yanking each of our chains. That is merciful of Him and I am happy to see it in you and in me. May we ever be wrong (but ever less so as He draws us in) as He is ever not only right but Righteousness, not only true but Truth.

[Cronos]

interesting, so to clarify, do you believe that God created evil?

[Cronos]

Arrogant self-righteous bureaucratic powermongering !!!!CONTROL!!!! phreaque !!!!TRADITION!!!! bound elitism has always had piles of supporting law

Exactly -- a good description of the police theocratic state set up by Calvin in Geneva and what he wished for all

[Cronos]

Imperious hubris ! Since Nicea.

Yup, since the Council of Nicea you mean that The Apostolic Church since then has had imperious hubris, right?

[Cronos]

In fact, Pope John Paul II referred to the Eastern Church as the "other lung," yet Roman Catholic armchair theologians on the FR insist Eastern Orthodox Christians are merely a "guest lung."

then the latter are wrong. If the Patriarch of the West refers to the Easterners as the "other lung", we have no right to disagree with him (actually we have no logical reason to disagree with him on that at all).

[RnMomof7]

AMEN!

[Cronos]

So then you DO agree with the Presbyterians on predestination?

[Cronos]

Presbyterians as well as Baptists and Pentecostals lead the world in mission work, and have for centuries.

HA! That's a joke -- I've seen BAptists and Pentecostal missions worldwide but not Calvinist and Orthodox Presbyterians.

The fastest growing Church in S. America is the pentecostals, don't try and club the OPC in that.

What missions has the Orthodox Presbyterian Machenite worshippers set up in Asia or South America?

[Cronos]

My Bible tells me that Moses changed God’s mind.

And

That Jesus was touched with the feelings of our infirmities.

There are other Scriptures indicating that the above assertion is plainly false and at best grossly oversimplified.

It is part of the magnamimous mystery of The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that HE INVITES US INTO HIS REALM . . . TO CARE FOR US AS CHILDREN, INDEED, AS FRIENDS, . . . AND TO BE RESPONSIVE TO EVEN OUR PRAYERS AND THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF OUR HEARTS . . . EVEN TO THE POINT OF GIVING US the desires of our hearts when our soul is fixed on Him.

HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH US IS A DANCE.

One doesn’t dance with robots . . . except in a comedy show or a sci-fi horror film.

Good one. And clearly illustrating that God does not consider us marionettes but gave us the free will to choose or not to choose him

Also, good point that God gives us our hearts desires even though we don't deserve it and HE does have to.

[Cronos]

Equating God's election with the law of karma is unbiblical.

That's why we say that karma/predestination is not biblical.

[Cronos]

With grace a man will sin less and care very much when he does. He will know he is being disobedient and hate that failing.

How can he sin less? He doesn't have any free will to sin. Since he's part of "the elect", he can't sin.