Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Matter of fact, there was a good convergence of the Catholic and Lutheran perspectives on justification acheived about 10 years ago, but I don’t think the rest of the Protestant world accepted it or cared about it.
My problem with Protestant arguments is that I don’t think they reflect the scripture. It is hard to argue against a negative. This is why I keep pounding the scriptural aspect of this issue. I fully understand, mind you, that there are aspects of Catholicism that developed overtime and are not spelled out in the scripture at all. But the theory of justification I think is spelled out and it is not what Protestantism (agains, excepting traditionalist Lutherans and a few others) teaches. How can you argue, for example, that the judgement is not by works?
Marksbar,
Now you know I’m not going to take that bait..tsk tsk. Are you trying to make me laugh? It worked.
Since when did you not know Christ is the only intercessor between God and man for non-catholics..come on..I am sooo chuckling. It’s all over threads and you’ve debated the issue time and again.
Thanks I really did need a good chuckle...been a long day.
That's easy! They do it to irritate you.
The Orthodox have largely exited FR based in part upon the perceived churlishness of the Latins. And I completely understand their point of view. I am ashamed of how some of us have treated some of them.
Read your post. The Catholic Church is all of the Catholic Church, not just a segment of it. What a dumb thing to post.
Exactly! I'm not OP but the point remains. From a historical standpoint the Eastern Orthodox have every right to that name.
Personally, after being stalked by sanctimonious Romanists demanding that I refer to them as they command I find their self-righteouness sickening and a proper caucus name may go a long way in alleviating their unChristian behavior.
I am a servant of mankind.
Since when did you not know Christ is the only intercessor between God and man for non-catholics..come on..I am sooo chuckling. It’s all over threads and you’ve debated the issue time and again.
I have all kinds of fun with the Calvinists. Glad to see that you can participate as well. No need to restrict it to the selected elected elite
Nowhere is water symbolizing the Word. But the baptism of John is a prefigurement of the baptism of Christ, and surely the apostles baptized like we do today, and all that was of water. Not a single time is baptism by water -- physical water -- separated from the spiritual re-birth of a Christian. In the scripture, Christian baptism is by water. Nor is it ever explained, nevertheless, as a vulgar "bath", even though we do have a "laver of regeneration", -- spiritual bath. In fact, St. Peter is very explicit that baptism has nothing to do with physical cleansing, and at the same time is physically manifested by water:
baptism being of the like form [as the waters of the flood were, see preceding verses], now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
So, I think this is one more of those lengthy ways to bypass the scripture as written. Jesus spoke to Nicodemus of baptism because St. John was practicing baptizing. If Jesus wanted to say Spirit, He would have said Spirit, He was not tongue-tied. He said, water and spirit, and when Peter was asked what to do, he also said, be baptised and you will get the Spirit.
To be born again is to be baptized.
From what I've read from Lutherans it was ok till you got to the appendix at which time most conservative Lutherans rejected the document.
My problem with Protestant arguments is that I don’t think they reflect the scripture. It is hard to argue against a negative. This is why I keep pounding the scriptural aspect of this issue.
Then you have not really studied the Protestant arguments. As I said earlier, it's an exegetical argument based on a type of hermeneutic.
How can you argue, for example, that the judgement is not by works?
Through harmonizing Scripture. Protestants do not disagree that we will be judged by our works but those judgements do not effect our justification rather our reward.
The resurrection of the dead raises the dead from the graves, yes, and you just stumbled on the prooftext for it. Live and learn.
....Well I see that you can challenge some here on FR. But it usually works for the good, in that people generally will examine the scriptures when their beliefs are challenged...to support, or stand corrected, or maintain what they do believe...and that’s a good thing.
So anything which leads people to the scriptures I am for, even when the billows might blow! tsk tsk
There is nothing in the scripture to be "harmonized". It is in harmony as written. The Protestants need the "exegetical argument based on a type of hermeneutic" (gosh!) because they never take the scripture at its plain, self evident to all, meaning.
Sorry, I'm just not gettin’ all worked up about it.
If you read through my posts, I make significant effort to speak clearly and without “churlishness.” Here, we're discussing ontology, and my correspondent says of the Catholic Church's understanding:
"It wouldn't be the first corruption of Greek by the west, for sure.”
Now, if he wants to make a dig, well, lots of that goes on at FR. But often, when the conversation starts to degnerage in that way, I try to remind myself that it would be better to start to disengage than to descend slowly into the gutter with my interlocutor. I wish I always did this, I don't. But this time, I did.
“The Catholic Church is all of the Catholic Church, not just a segment of it.”
Yes, and the Orthodox Churches are not quite the Catholic Church. Here is a thread posted a couple of years ago and recently resurrected:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1863482/posts
It's a CDF discussion about the status and essential elements of other churches and ecclesial bodies. I think a fair reading of it supports what I've said about the differences between the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches.
As for churishness generally, I've been here for a little while, and have interacted with and watched the interactions with Orthodox posters. We Catholics have nothing on them in this category.
sitetest
Me? Nonsense. I am as mild as slice of American cheese.
So anything which leads people to the scriptures I am for, even when the billows might blow! tsk tsk
Better before the billows than after the four horsemen.
Interestingly, you still haven't pointed out where I wasn't even close to the truth in the first sentences of mine that you cited from post 2023.
Do you still think that there's something that I said that wasn't close to the truth?
sitetest
I do not have the temper to deal with you tonight. I am afraid that I will deal with you as you deserve. I would ask that you read up on the first millennium of the Fathers and then if you understood it you would hide your head in shame. As for churishness generally, I've been here for a little while, and have interacted with and watched the interactions with Orthodox posters. We Catholics have nothing on them in this category.
Many Western Catholics post idiotic statements like this. No wonder things are as they are. The Protestantization of the Latin Church, culminating in Vatican II has come close to destroying it. If it wasn't for the Orthodox anchoring the Faith, who knows where it might have gone.
I do not have the temper to deal with you tonight. I am afraid that I will deal with you as you deserve. I would ask that you read up on the first millennium of the Fathers and then if you understood it you would hide your head in shame.
As for churishness generally, I've been here for a little while, and have interacted with and watched the interactions with Orthodox posters. We Catholics have nothing on them in this category.
Many Western Catholics post idiotic statements like this. No wonder things are as they are. The Protestantization of the Latin Church, culminating in Vatican II has come close to destroying it. If it wasn't for the Orthodox anchoring the Faith, who knows where it might have gone.
What a wonderful repudiation of the of sovereignty God to say there is a 2nd god that can foil or interfere with the plans of God. Either God is God or He is not..we are not dualists that believe in dueling gods..
Please read the book of Job.. there you see that Satan must ask the permission of God to act..without that permission he can do nothing
Look to the book of Job, the book many believe is oldest of the books in the Bible..
And in this book we see that Satan has no power except the power given him by God
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Job 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
God suggested Job and then set the parameters of the test
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Satan and his demons are subject to God
Judges 9:23-24 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: {24} That the cruelty done to the threescore and ten sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood be laid upon Abimelech their brother, which slew them; and upon the men of Shechem, which aided him in the killing of his brethren
1 Samuel 16:14-16 But the spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. {15} And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. {16} Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
Not only is Satan subject to God, but they are subject to man in the name of Jesus
Who is the God of Satan?
Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Satan is a tool in the hand of God. He can not act independent of the permission of God. God uses him to accomplish His purposes
2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
This is a good example of Satan as a tool of God
It is Gods will to blind the eyes of some for HIS purpose
Jhn 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day
To believe that satan is the ruler of this world and that in some way there is a "contest" for power is a heresy of dualism
Satan continues to be a creation of God and subject to His authority .That is why we can say with confidence
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Might you consider that all things are under the control of God, even Satan and evil men?
To Pilate Christ says
Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Act 2:22 ¶ Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
God does not need to force men to do evil, he simply has to remove His restraining hand and men will do the evil that is in their hearts.
Amo 3:6 — Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Cracking me up...you,”..mild as a slice of American cheese?? maybe, but slippery when it’s wet.
“Better before the billows than after the four horsemen.”-——ah, yes indeed. Frightful time a coming to be sure.
ph
All of which are greatly appreciated for those still with heads on shoulders instead of in dark places.
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