Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
You are born again, or not. You have a heart of stone, or flesh. God has written his law on your heart, or not.
And one of my favorite verses, Hebrews 10:14...
“For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”
One offering. Perfected. For all time. Being sanctified.
Of course, I don’t know Greek, so I’ll offer this:
Hebrews 10:14
He hath perfected (teteleiwken).
Perfect active indicative of teleiow. He has done what the old sacrifices failed to do (verse 1).
Them that are sanctified (touv agiazomenouv).
Articular participle (accusative case) present passive of agiazw (note perfect in verse 10) either because of the process still going on or because of the repetition in so many persons as in 2:11.
Is that what they taught you at seminary when you studied to become a Protestant Pastor???
You don't think beign born again is a new creation? What is it then?
I don't see in the scripture how you can be a part time slave to sin and a part time slave to righteousness
the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do. (St. Paul, the justified one, in Romans 7:19)
He sure is. He does not show the way? Hm.
justified by Christ's righteousness imputed to us
Is that "imputed" part in any way in the scripture? But that aside, yes indeed, it is the righteousness of Christ that justifies the elect by their works, correct.
That may be accurate to say after your religion flip-flopped on the issue...But clearly in the earlier days, your religion did not take your position, according to your popes...
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
It is moments of surprise such as this that make the Scripture such a delight to read.
You are absolutely correct: one ends up either in Heaven or in Hell.
Go fugure.
I’m glad to hear that. Do you have a good Bible believing church nearby where your new found faith can be formed?
“the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do. (St. Paul, the justified one, in Romans 7:19)”
And what is his conclusion?
“So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do.”
You see, if you are born again, you don’t ENJOY sin. A pig may be happy in mud, but you are no longer a pig, if you are born again.
Before that?
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
But no longer.
There are consequences to actions, regardless of the third grade salvation doctrine of the elect that the Calvinists hold. The Church condemns nobody to hell; people condemn themselves. The Church only formally publishes what people insist on. If you insist on pagan anti Christian beliefs that lead to hell in public, then eventually the Church will agree that you are pagan anti Christian and insisting that you wish to head to hell. It's up to you, and to everyone else. Jesus Judges all men by the standards that He has set out (including all those in the Gospel of Matthew). Including the Calvinists.
Actually, that depends.
I am Catholic, I have been richly blessed with that.
I thought you just agreed that partial (initial) justification is false?
“one ends up either in Heaven or in Hell.”
We already are...”even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”
“24He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”
The church is the start of heaven.
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1
So says Calvin.
Of course, Calvin's hand-made god sent Mao to earth to kill seventy million people (70,000,000!) in peacetime.
Who are we to second guess Calvin? If Calvin says that the likes of Mao are predestined by God to slaughter 70 million people, then we must believe that the Reformed God, in His pleasure, had ordained that those 70 million people are to be slaughtered for His pleasure, and their suffering and dying is for His pleasure as well. Next time a Calvinist is thrown out of work, I suggest that we sneer at him since the Reformed God created that firing for His pleasure as well. Next time a little girl is raped and killed, we need to celebrate that the Reformed God is pleased. How about the genocides in Africa? More pleasure for the Reformed God.
Hmm. How is the Reformed God different from, say, the gods of the Mayans who demanded that the living hearts be cut out of the chests of the sacrifices and offered to them on the pyramids of Central America?
What does God intervene in?
That's interesting, I have never heard of that distinction and have used both terms to describe myself. Could you help me figure out what I am? :)
“Is that “imputed” part in any way in the scripture?”
The imputation of Christ’s righteousness is the basis of justification. Imputation is a corollary of the identification of the believer with Christ and a necessary and logical inference to make, as it allows us coherently to hold together a number of ideas and concepts in Paul’s theology of salvation. It is a synthetic way of holding together a number of themes that clearly point in the direction of imputation; the language of ‘reckoning’, the emphasis on Christ’s obedience and faithfulness, the representative nature of Adam and Christ, the references to union with Christ, the fact that righteousness is explicitly called a ‘gift’ and the forensic nature of righteousness all make sense with some kind of theology of imputation.
There are no “proof-texts explicitly mentioning imputation, however, these texts, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Romans 4:1-5, 1 Corinthians 1:30 or Philippians 3:6-9 are usually cited and come close to saying something like that; each says something slightly different about Christ’s work.
God imputes the obedience and merits of Jesus to believers and in turn imputes their sins to Jesus on the cross. Paul argues that we are justified by union with Christ through his righteousness. Jesus is justified in his resurrection, and by faith we have union with him so that we share in his justification. Through incorporation into Christ by faith, what is his becomes ours and what is ours becomes his.
Yes, a baptised Christian is a new creation precisely because he has been freed by "the law of the Spirit of life". So this is the work that we do: "I myself, with the mind serve the law of God". "If by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live". Does it look to you that it is someone secure in his done-deal justification speaking?
It is false. Your justification happens based on your works at the end of your life, as the gospel explains.
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