Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
mentions the literal and not metaphorical body of Christ delivered up for us
####
One
of the plausible, possible, conceivable
INFERENCES, EXTRAPOLATIONS, INTERPRETATIONS . . .
however, . . . arguable, at best.
. . . while y’all treat it like a certainty.
So in YOUR usage, the meaning of pray has changed from the way it is used in that passage, while In ours it has not.
It's more like "I beg you' than 'please', even though 'please' is just short for "if it please you."
After you have determined what the meanings and differences between the words worship, prayer, intercession, and saint
#####
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, no doubt . . . as ajudicated by the
Vatican Rubber Dictionary and Vatican Rubber Bible?
In 1171?
The first quote is John 14:13-14, the second is 1 Timothy 2:1-6. Douay Rheims translations for both.
I’ll say one thing and drop out too. These discussions are interminable.
The Communion of the Saints is simply(!?) something we understand to be the great cloud of witnesses our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Hebrews 12:22-24:
But you have come to Mt. Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel (NRSV
That I speak (pray) with those who are at God’s knee is pretty much as I would around the supper table. To Catholics, these are souls as alive in Christ in heaven and as accessible as my relatives on earth.
Hebrews 12:1-2:
Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God (NRSV).
We see heaven and earth as connected to each other. Not disconnected as modern Christianity has thought. Culturally, some have taken Mary’s intercession too far but that would be culturally and not “curially.”
Enough of that. Peace.
OHHHHHH, THAT'S RICH!
ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS!
The task here is not to say, "But it's different, it's different!" The task is to try to find HOW it's different and then to see what kind of difference that makes.
It is a certainty that “this is my body, which shall be delivered for you” (1 Cor 11:24) is a reference to the physical body of Jesus and not to the Church. Was the Church beaten up and crucified?
Whether a metaphor or literal . . . I tend to the literal camp . . .
the bottom line of that story was . . .
Abraham did NOT COMPLY.
And, we have NO evidence that such an event, IF it occurred at all literally, was to be a DOCTRINAL LEVEL PATTERN for all and sundry in the future.
Quite an iffy thing to build so many gargantuan skyscrapers of doctrine, habit, ritual, custom, . . . idolatry . . . on.
Beautifully stated, as always. All praise, glory and honor to Him!
Ahhhh yes, that old . . .
seemingly theologically genetic incapacity to
TELL THE DIFERENCE
between
SAME VS DIFFERENT.
. . . . a refresher course . . .
DIFFERENT VIEWS, BELIEFS, PERSPECTIVES, CONVICTIONS ABOUT REALITY DO
NOT EQUAL
LYING, LIES.
Regardless of how rubbery the
Vatican Affiliates et al
make their dictionary.
Where is the deficiency?
No mention of electronics, keyboards, etc.
Interestingly, I see no "union" in the verse in Koine. But it is because we are united in Christ, that we (as we think) can communicate with saints and angels, through Him in whom all things hold together.
It certainly has nothing to do with that being deciding to acquire some of God’s Glory on his own . . . nor of that being’s co-horts deciding to steal some of God’s Glory in the death of night and throw it on their buddy.
###
Sorry, but I don’t see that as a jab at all.
My wording, to me, the author of it, was to illustrate as vividly as I could that others, NOT GOD really can’t, to my mind, have anything to do with ‘making’ God’s Glory be imparted to anyone else or anything else. I wrote it as an absurdity to illustrate the absurdity of the notion.
That was an intellectual point and tool . . . not per se directed at an individual nor even per se at the Vatican edifice.
Besides, you are welcome to jab me whenever you feel it fitting.
I will trust the Scripture . . . paraphrased here . . . the jabs of a friend are faithful but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
In terms of the rest of the stuff in your post about
THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHOWN ROUND ABOUT . . .
I see it as very much ONE THING
WHEN God manifests HIS GLORY IN SUCH A WAY ON ANYONE OR ANYTHING FOR HIS PURPOSES.
AND AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT TO THE POINT OF BEING AN OPPOSITE SORT OF THING
when a human being or magicsterical or Pope or Deacon Board or whomever . . . decide politically or for whatever other list of very . . . flawed to rank fleshly reasons to presume to elevate a human into some such presumed lofty categroy as seems to be the case with the Vatican.
When God does it, it’s OVERTLY OBVIOUS.
And, it seems to usually be a very incident specific thing for a very incident specific, time limited purpose—at least in the Scriptural examples.
Thank you for the link. It seems I'm in much agreement with the Orthodox concerning the numerous errors of the Romanists. Here are some highlights from the article:
The Church does not seek to reconcile faith and reason. ..Roman Catholicism, on the other hand, places a high value on human reason. Its history shows the consequence of that trust. For example, in the Latin Middle Ages, the 13th century, the theologian-philosopher, Thomas Aquinas, joined "Christianity" with the philosophy of Aristotle. From that period til now, the Latins have never wavered in their respect for human wisdom; and it has radically altered the theology, mysteries and institutions of the Christian religion.The fundamental witness to the Christian Tradition is the holy Scriptures ...On the other hand, Roman Catholicism, unable to show a continuity of faith and in order to justify new doctrine, erected in the last century, a theory of "doctrinal development."
The God of Roman Catholicism, born in the Latin Middle Ages, is not " the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but the God of the savants and the philosohers," to adapt the celebrated phrase of Blaise Pascal.
Roman Catholic theology is customarily legalistic and philosophical. For example, a "valid" (legal term) baptism into Christ is the result of the right intention (having the same understanding of baptism as the Church) and using the correct formula or words during the ceremony or rite.
According to Latin ecclesiology, each local parish is part of the universal or whole Church. The totality of Catholic parishes form the Body of Christ on earth. This visible Body has a visible head, the Pope. This idea of the Church implies that the local parish has two heads: the Pope and the local bishop. But a body with two visible heads is a monster. Also, the local bishop seems stripped of his apostolic authority if the Pope may contradict his orders. Indeed, he cannot become a bishop unless the Pope allows it.
Unlike the Latins, the Orthodox Church does not think of canons as laws, that is, as regulating human relationships or securing human rights; rather, Orthodoxy views canons as the means of forging the "new man" or "new creature" through obedience. They are training in virtue. They are meant to produce holiness.
Concerning the Sacraments in general, the Orthodox teach that their material elements (bread, wine, water, chrism, etc.) become grace-filled by the calling of the Holy Spirit (epiklesis). Roman Catholicism believes that the Sacraments are effective on account of the priest who acts "in the person of Christ."
At the same time, the Latins interpret the Sacraments in a legal and philosophical way. Hence, in the Eucharist, using the right material things (bread and wine) and pronouncing the correct formula, changes their substance (transubstantiation) into the Body and Blood of Christ. The visible elements or this and all Sacraments are merely "signs" of the presence of God.
But that is NOT the language Catholics use in ‘praying’ to Mary, and the language used is how Protestants pray to God Himself. So that is how it differs.
And since I’ve read Vatican documents discussing sects that have gone to far in Marian devotion, the concern isn’t totally without justification, even per the Catholic Church.
Look. We acknowledge that it's HYPER-dulia. It's not going to be exactly the same as the way I approach a friend to ask for prayer.
And since I perceive that through Mary's intercession Jesus has given great blessings to me, I am going to indulge in words of gratitude and affection toward her as well as toward Jesus.
It's not going to be an exact equivalence; it's going to be more proportional. "So and so the next county over is a powerful intercessor. Hoowee!" That sort of calibrates the scale. Once it's calibrated "Our life, our sweetness, and our hope, is seen to be, well, proportional. She is some KIND of intercessor! "Hoowee" just doesn't do it.
As for the over-the-top folks. Well there are people whose parents were lutherans and then they just gave up on the whole church thing altogether.
"Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds," and the greater the truth, the more devastating its perversion ...
I feel like I'm playing king of the hill here. Would you guys take turns or something?
. . .
to . . . beg of thee . . . beg of someone . . .
request of someone . . .
to my mind, and I think the mind of most Prottys . . . when using the word
pray . . . is an exclusive term. We don’t see in Scripture . . . any uses of the word in the sense that we understand it to routinely mean—to apply to anyone—rightly, Biblically, Righteously—to anyone BUT GOD.
That’s the definition that we believe the whole counsel of Scripture contains, entails.
In 1 Cor 11, the preceding verses cover how they disrespect each other in their approach to Communion:
” 17But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.”
Paul counters it by reminding them what he taught and where it came from:
“23For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”
Paul now rebukes them for taking a solemn remembrance & proclamation - and note, he does NOT call it a re-presentation, but a remembrance and proclamation - and turning it into a chance to ignore or embarrass each other and the Lord (remember verse 21: One goes hungry, another gets drunk...getting drunk at the Eucharist is not a matter of not believing transubstantiation, but not believing Christ is your Lord!). So he writes:
“27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. 31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.”
Remember where this falls. Chapters 8, 9 & 10 cover how they damage the body of Christ - the church - by eating food sacrificed to idols. He reminds them they also partake of Communion:
“16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons.”
“We who are many are one body” - he is talking about the congregation being one in Christ, not the physical body of Jesus.
And in Chapters 12-14, he talks about spiritual gifts, and uses the church as a body to describe the effect:
“14For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.”
So, given that chapters 8,9 & 10 use the body of Christ as a metaphor for the church, and chapters 12-14 do likewise, the idea that Chapter 11 is referring to discerning the physical body of Christ in a loaf a bread rather than discerning that they are one in Christ is to take a couple of verses out of the context of the surrounding 7 chapters.
And that is bad interpretation.
Angels are labeled in SCRIPTURE
MESSENGERS as their FUNCTION.
NEVERTHELESS,
Scripture does NOT contain ANY exhortation to pray to angels either.
Scatter fire then. I never claimed what you said,. You made a post in the form of attacking an argument I had made but basically changed the subject by broadening it. The small task was taking too long so you decided to make it bigger?
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