Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Natural Law]

"I am not a trinitarian (whatever that means, maybe I am and just don't know it!) so I don't give a flying who!"

The Trinitarian God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in one Being.

[Mad Dawg]

Where does it say that?

Specifically where does it say that the angels aren’t with me right now? Where does it say they related to time and space as I do? Where does it say I may not address any remarks or requests to them?

There’s an implication in the passage about the little children that we have guardian angels. Where does it say I don’t have one, or that I do and he is not here with me, or that I do, he is here with me, and he cannot (in the Spirit) convey my messages to other angels?

[NoGrayZone]

"Show me a verse from the Bible that says it's okay for you to discuss Christianity on the Internet. Imagine how that would go: You'd show a verse, I'd look at it and point out where I thought it was deficient, and so on."

Matthew 10:32...."Everyone, then, that confesses union with me before men, I will also confess union with him before my Father who is in the heavens.

Where is the deficiency?

[NoGrayZone]

Shoot and move? Okay, here’s the deal. YOU pray to Mary, the Saints and angels, I won’t.

I do not find any scripture in the Bible telling me otherwise. If you do, so be it.

One of us is wrong. We will both find out on our day of reckoning.

Until then, may the Lord bless you.

[Mad Dawg]

Look, the way an argument goes is that one goes over it repeatedly and refines the details and sees if the unspoke steps support the conclusion.

So you say,
however, it does say in John 14:13-14 that prayer to God MUST be said through Jesus.,

Now I say, "We do not dispute that. We agree. Prayer to God, so to speak, reaches Him THROUGH Jesus and IN the Spirit. Yes. I agree. (Except the prepositions kind of shift around a little, and Paul talks about us being 'in' Jesus a lot.)"

Then you say, "So what are you doing praying to Mary, other saints, and angels?"

Then I say, "What are you doing making any requests, and especially requests for prayer, of anyone but God thorough Jesus?"

Then you say, "That's different,"
and I say, "How? How is it different?"

[boatbums]

IMHO...I think you are missing the deeper point of this argument. That is, it is not so much that Catholics believe in many things outside of Scripture, or on the edge of, it's that the hierarchy insists it is inerrant in proclaiming these dogmas and doctrines and denounces as heretics and anathema those who do not ascribe to them as stated.

It would be one thing to say, “We believe Mary can appeal to Jesus about our needs and, as her son, he will heed her requests more expeditiously than if we prayed to him as primary. But we accept that not all Christians may ascribe to this and will prefer to pray only to Christ.” If left there, I can't imagine too many “Protestants” would get heartburn. It's the part about, “We are the only true church and whatever our magesteria declares as doctrine, no one dare deny under threat of condemnation.”, that's what gets most folks’ goat. Get it???

[NoGrayZone]

"Specifically where does it say that the angels aren’t with me right now?"

I never said they weren't. The only problem I have is people praying TO THEM.

[NoGrayZone]

"Then I say, "What are you doing making any requests, and especially requests for prayer, of anyone but God thorough Jesus?"

I am STILL praying, to God, THROUGH Jesus. I am NOT praying TO anyone else.

[Mad Dawg]

Now I will probably get yelled at somehow for this, but this is why I say Protestants do not like to use reason.

Somebody makes an assertion and I address it. My address is called inadequate because it does not address some other part of the argument.

Of COURSE it doesn't. Journey of a thousand miles and all that. Rome wasn't built in a day. If I take on step it's silly to complain that I haven't taken five.

So when I point that out, the conversation is over?

Weird.

[Mad Dawg]

Do you ever ask your friend to pray for you? In the sense that we are using "pray" and "prayer" that's a prayer to your friend for your friend's prayers. You complained about the word prayer, so I invented another word, but got no useful comment.

Would it be better if we said we make requests of Mary and the other saints and angels, and we communicate other things to them?

[annalex]

13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.

it does say in John 14:13-14 that prayer to God MUST be said through Jesus.

Right. It would therefore be wrong to utter a prayer like this: "Mary, please cure my disease" or "Mary, please forgive me my sins". Luckily, I know of no one who prays to Mary like that, at the exclusion of Jesus. The whole idea to pray to Mary is after all based on the fact of her proximity to Jesus as His mother. But it is perfectly fine, in the light of these verses, to ask Mary to join me in praying to Jesus for these things.

Here, for example, St. Paul instructs St. Timothy to offer intercession to God in Timothy's church:

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: 6 Who gave himself a redemption for all

(1 Tim. 2)

See how St. Paul acknowledges in the same passage that Jesus is the sole mediator to God, yet that Timothy should pray and intercede for salvation of others.

[Quix]

because you don't understand the difference.

OH, DEAR!

HAS A CLOSET ET in the Vatican Affiliated et al ranks outted himself? . . . reading NGZ's mind?

OH, MY. What a surprise! Tsk Tsk and all that! I mean what with all the derision the cliques have lobbed at THAT topic! LOL.

[Mr Rogers]

“and I say, “How? How is it different?””

I wasn’t going to post on this thread, but...

It differs in the language. I don’t go to anyone and ‘pray’ - ask - them for prayer the way Catholics pray to Mary.

If Catholics prayed thus, “Mary, please join me in prayer to God. This is my burden/request...please add your prayer to mine”, there would be no debate.

But that is NOT the language Catholics use in ‘praying’ to Mary, and the language used is how Protestants pray to God Himself. So that is how it differs.

And since I’ve read Vatican documents discussing sects that have gone to far in Marian devotion, the concern isn’t totally without justification, even per the Catholic Church.

I find discussions of Mariology too full of emotion for much productive discussion. I think the differences are as much cultural and personality based as they are theology. It is hard to a Protestant to mention a disagreement without it coming across as, “Your Mama wears combat boots!”...so I’ll drop out now.

[NoGrayZone]

Not at all. I asked for scripture where it states we can pray TO Mary, Saints and angels....and I haven't received a bit of scripture stating we can!

The only thing I have received is someone telling me “well, it doesn't say we can't”.

Not good enough! God has been very forthright in telling us what we can and can't do. If it were okay to pray to Mary, Saints and angels, He would have explicitly told us.

[NoGrayZone]

What Bible verse is that?

[Natural Law]

"OH, DEAR!"

I've stopped responding to your drivel....perls before swine and all of that......

[Quix]

Are you insisting that you really believe

pray

in that verse is

equal

to Jesus praying in the Garden?

in the sense of the word . . . as directed to Deity???

Shakespeare had a lot of

‘pray thee’ this’s and ‘pray thee that’s’

I assume you don’t equate all those with Christ’s praying in the Garden to the Father???

[Natural Law]

"If Catholics prayed thus, “Mary, please join me in prayer to God. This is my burden/request...please add your prayer to mine”, there would be no debate.

As in "...Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, amen."

[NoGrayZone]

"If Catholics prayed thus, “Mary, please join me in prayer to God. This is my burden/request...please add your prayer to mine”, there would be no debate."

Absolutely.

"But that is NOT the language Catholics use in ‘praying’ to Mary, and the language used is how Protestants pray to God Himself. So that is how it differs."

I have been asking for scripture (not as a Protestant) as to where the Bible states it is okay to pray TO Mary.

It's been "hogwash" ever since. If I'm wrong, and the Bible says it's okay, then I will eat crow and start anew.

[Mad Dawg]

How is that not changing the subject?

Sure, our claim of authority is controversial. But one way to back it up is to deal with the questions about particular exercises of that authority.

I believed that one could pray to Mary and to the angles and other saints long before I accepted the authority of the Magisterium and became Catholic.

“We are the only true church and whatever our magesteria declares as doctrine, no one dare deny under threat of condemnation.”, that's what gets most folks’ goat. Get it???

Look at the zeal with which we are attacked, the mockery of our terms and language, the twisting of what we think, the attribution of our devotion to Mary to various perversions or neuroses.

Now consider: Among these people attacking us are those who think we teach soul-imperilling poison. So they do not hold back in expressing their condemnation.

SO why should we? I think the fullness of the Church subsists among those in communion with the See of Rome. I really do think those who do not avail themselves of the excellence of what "the fullness of the Church" is are losing a lot. I think those who argue against us are doing damage, probably not ultimate, but still serious, to the souls of many.

So, if I had the responsibility to declaring, guarding, a defining, and teaching the Gospel, I would be as clear about the condemnations I issued against those whom I thought wrong, as many of those who disagree with me have been about the Catholic church, as clear as Calvin was.

But in the meantime, the argument against prayer to Mary has not been clearly articulated. We have a practice, people don't like it. It seems that we can legitimately expect them to be clear about why they don't like it before we address their objections.