“and I say, “How? How is it different?””
I wasn’t going to post on this thread, but...
It differs in the language. I don’t go to anyone and ‘pray’ - ask - them for prayer the way Catholics pray to Mary.
If Catholics prayed thus, “Mary, please join me in prayer to God. This is my burden/request...please add your prayer to mine”, there would be no debate.
But that is NOT the language Catholics use in ‘praying’ to Mary, and the language used is how Protestants pray to God Himself. So that is how it differs.
And since I’ve read Vatican documents discussing sects that have gone to far in Marian devotion, the concern isn’t totally without justification, even per the Catholic Church.
I find discussions of Mariology too full of emotion for much productive discussion. I think the differences are as much cultural and personality based as they are theology. It is hard to a Protestant to mention a disagreement without it coming across as, “Your Mama wears combat boots!”...so I’ll drop out now.
As in "...Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, amen."
Absolutely.
"But that is NOT the language Catholics use in ‘praying’ to Mary, and the language used is how Protestants pray to God Himself. So that is how it differs."
I have been asking for scripture (not as a Protestant) as to where the Bible states it is okay to pray TO Mary.
It's been "hogwash" ever since. If I'm wrong, and the Bible says it's okay, then I will eat crow and start anew.
I’ll say one thing and drop out too. These discussions are interminable.
The Communion of the Saints is simply(!?) something we understand to be the great cloud of witnesses our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Hebrews 12:22-24:
But you have come to Mt. Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel (NRSV
That I speak (pray) with those who are at God’s knee is pretty much as I would around the supper table. To Catholics, these are souls as alive in Christ in heaven and as accessible as my relatives on earth.
Hebrews 12:1-2:
Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God (NRSV).
We see heaven and earth as connected to each other. Not disconnected as modern Christianity has thought. Culturally, some have taken Mary’s intercession too far but that would be culturally and not “curially.”
Enough of that. Peace.
But that is NOT the language Catholics use in ‘praying’ to Mary, and the language used is how Protestants pray to God Himself. So that is how it differs.
And since I’ve read Vatican documents discussing sects that have gone to far in Marian devotion, the concern isn’t totally without justification, even per the Catholic Church.
Look. We acknowledge that it's HYPER-dulia. It's not going to be exactly the same as the way I approach a friend to ask for prayer.
And since I perceive that through Mary's intercession Jesus has given great blessings to me, I am going to indulge in words of gratitude and affection toward her as well as toward Jesus.
It's not going to be an exact equivalence; it's going to be more proportional. "So and so the next county over is a powerful intercessor. Hoowee!" That sort of calibrates the scale. Once it's calibrated "Our life, our sweetness, and our hope, is seen to be, well, proportional. She is some KIND of intercessor! "Hoowee" just doesn't do it.
As for the over-the-top folks. Well there are people whose parents were lutherans and then they just gave up on the whole church thing altogether.
"Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds," and the greater the truth, the more devastating its perversion ...
I feel like I'm playing king of the hill here. Would you guys take turns or something?
INDEED.
AND VERY TELLING.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks . . . and prays.
EXCELLENT POINTS.