Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
I clearly should have included a satire tag or reworded it.
LOL.
You must have googled the same things I did. NO WHERE do those versus tell us TO PRAY TO THEM!
In Revelation 19:10...At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.
1 Peter 2:17 - Peter teaches us to honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Don't those living with Christ in heaven deserve honor? Catholics believe they do, and honor them with special feast days, just as we honor those living by celebrating their birthdays.
If you are legitimately interested in understanding this I will expand upon it. If not, then no amount of supporting information will suffice.
Neither word "pray" nor the word "prayer" appear in this verse. Prayer and worship are not the same thing and one can happen without the other.
Isaiah 42:8
That He does is unbiblical, and is just vain thoughts of a glory seeking, man made religion
I attend and do small things at a Charismatic/Pentecostal church that’s part of a loose Federation. Some dear friends of my folks started it when I was in Jr High.
When I first attended after returning from Asia, the then head Pastor eventually called me into his office for a Kangaroo court because of my letter documenting the sound being too high and medically destructive to ears.
He said repeatedly: “I don’t have what it takes to be your pastor.”
So are you asking me to leave the church?
“No. We can’t do that.”
repeat repeat repeate over 2 hours . . .
Finally . . .
So, Can I still attend the church then?
“Why would you WANT TO!!!???!!!”
I asked The Lord to show me where I was wrong
or
to change him, or move him on or whatever else The Lord’s wisdom would decide to do with him to fix the obvious problem.
within a year, IIRC, he was removed for an extramarital affair he’d insisted he’d broken off but hadn’t.
Sigh. We are such fleshy humans so often.
The current Pastor was a little girl in the same church years ago. Some think she should be teaching a School of Prophets and an assistant Pastor there should be head Pastor. Either way, God would bless the congregation, I think. She’s doing a great job of preaching and leadership. People are being healed and coming to Salvation. Believers are being matured.
Music volume is much better but still could improve. Finally learned the mentality. She asserted that such as during prayer time after the sermon . . . that people pray more fervently with louder music. First time I’d heard that one. I still don’t like manipulating folks with music.
Long ago realized that no church is going to be perfect.
I just try to find one where the Bible is preached unfettered and fairly purely; where Holy Spirit is at least reasonably free to move; where God is worshipped in sincerity; where Pastor and people are warm, friendly, loving, authentically; where there’s some outreach to missions and the poor; where there’s a lack of arrogance on the part of the leadership . . . and hopefully, where God shows up with some frequency.
Thankfully, this place finally meets most of those.
It’ shard, however, to find someone more . . . ready to tell it like it is to church leadership on the health of organizations and congregations. The Body of Christ around the world but particularly in the West is a mess.
God have mercy.
THANKFULLY, HE WILL BE CLEANING IT UP. The cost, however, may be significant. A lot of people are going to be struck dead and a lot more removed from their positions in the process. God will be raising up leaders who REALLY PUT HIM AND HIS WILL FIRST REGARDLESS . . . REGARDLESS OF ORGANIZATION, LABELS ON THE DOOR, MAGICTERICAL DOCUMENTS ABOUT WHAT GOD CAN AND CAN’T DO ETC. ETC. ETC.
Part of me longs for that day. Part of me would like some more time for all of us to get our acts more together by His Grace, Blood and Spirit.
I think one of my biggest treasures in Asia was often experiencing Christians of all flavors coming together in an area and working FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD vs oganizational or personal fiefdoms. That was precious.
You are constrained by the English language and your understanding of the subject. You are confusing the act of prayer with the act of worship. These are clearly not the same so you cannot continue to use them interchangeably. Prayer is the application of the mind to Divine things, not merely to acquire a knowledge of them but to make use of such knowledge as a means of union with God. This may be done by acts of praise and thanksgiving, but petition is the principal act of prayer. The words used to express it in Scripture are: to call up (Genesis 4:26); to intercede (Job 22:10); to mediate (Isaiah 53:10); to consult (1 Samuel 28:6); to beseech (Exodus 32:11); and, very commonly, to cry out to.
Additionally, both worship and veneration are not absolutely constrained by a finite list of thou shalls and thou shall nots. Because one is not specifically commanded to pray via a saint does not prohibit it.
I think that's one of the most critical issues in this whole subject area.
People forget about the fellow trying to keep the Ark from falling off the oxe cart.
God blesses people and even elevates and lifts them up and may even bless them, as Moses, with some 'reflection' of His Shikinah Glory sp?
However, that's entirely different from man presuming to ascribe to other men; to organizations; to personages; to 'ruling bodies,' to ANY OTHER THING, ANY OTHER ANYONE . . . the least microscopic shred of God's due; God's Glory; God's office; God's authority; God's power; etc. etc. etc. ANY SUCH IS A GROSSLY BLASPHEMOUS HERESY AND A HIDEOUS DECEPTION FROM THE PIT OF HELL.
And, sadly, it happens in Protty circles . . . just in a much more covert and muted, less overtly conscious or clearly demonstrable way.
However, there are always horrid consequences for such elevations of man, man's notions, man's groups, personages etc. Always. And pleas of ignorance are not likely to be very protective.
lol, lol
you really should see this
Honoring someone is not the same as praying to them. That is what I have trouble with. Anyone praying to anyone other than God, through Jesus. Why can't you just honor those Saints or Mary IN your prayers, TO God and not pray to the Saints or Mary?
Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
we see from Revelation that all saints cast their crowns at the Lord's feet. All we have good here on earth was given to us by the Lord for His glory and His alone. To somehow think that anyone or anything shares that Glory is idolatry
Petronski:
Thank God you’re not describing the Catholic Church.
Naw. I'm NOT describing the UNIVERSAL CHURCH OF JESUS THE CHRIST--SPREAD ACROSS ALL REMOTELY BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN ORGANZATIONS AND CONGREGATIONS--at all--THE DESCRIPTION REFERRED TO REFERRED EXCLUSIVELY TO AN OUTRAGEOUSLY ARROGANT ORGANIZATION WHICH DOES, BY GOD'S GRACE, HAVE SOME MEMBERS OF THE UNIVERSAL BODY OF CHRIST WITHIN IT--BY SOME MIRACLE--THAT IS:
I'm ONLY describing those organizations, structures and congregations
Affiliated with; submissive to; in communion with; the Vatican in Rome and to the Pope heading that edifice and collection of "Sees," congregations, orders, organizatioins, churches, hospitals, colleges, universities, embassies, etc. thereof.
Just them.
I think y'all's cliques see them quite often . . . in mirrors.
When I pray, I am also worshiping.
"Prayer and worship are not the same thing"
So, you can pray to the "god of the sun" but yet not worship it?
Why on earth would you pray to someone whom you do not worship?
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
we see from Revelation that all saints cast their crowns at the Lord's feet. All we have good here on earth was given to us by the Lord for His glory and His alone. To somehow think that anyone or anything shares that Glory is idolatry
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ABSOLUTELY INDEED! PRAISE GOD FOR THAT!
Sorry to be so forward, but you are WRONG. If God wanted us to pray to Saints or to Mary, He would have explicitly said so in the Bible.
Instead He explicitly stated NO ONE GETS TO HIM EXCEPT THROUGH HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST. PERIOD, END OF STORY.
Everything else is man-made.....and we ALL know what man brings to the table.
He has a whole teaching I'm not confident I'm 100% understanding of . . . something along the line of . . .
a major set of illnesses . . . result from . . . as you indicated people are often amiss at . . .
FAILING TO DISCERN THE LORD'S BODY PROPERLY IN AND AMONGST ONE ANOTHER--AT THE TIME OF AND THE POINT OF TAKING THE LORD'S SUPPER--THAT IF FOLKS REALIZED THE FULL IMPORT OF THE SCRIPTURE, THEY'D NEVER DARE TO TAKE THE LORD'S SUPPER WITHOUT MAKING CERTAIN THAT THEY WERE CLEAR WITH EVERYONE THEY COULD BE CLEARER WITH.
I think he's quite right.
May God lead all of us fully into HIS TRUTH, ALL OF HIS TRUTHS.
GREAT POINTS.
THX.
Sorry to be so forward, but you are WRONG. If God wanted us to pray to Saints or to Mary, He would have explicitly said so in the Bible.
Instead He explicitly stated NO ONE GETS TO HIM EXCEPT THROUGH HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST. PERIOD, END OF STORY.
Everything else is man-made.....and we ALL know what man brings to the table.
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INDEED!
Amen!! I'm still waiting for the Bible verus that says it's okay to pray to ANYONE besides God, through Christ.
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