Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[NoGrayZone]

"If I'm praying to her because She is the mother of He who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, I don't see how you can make the case that I am denying that He is the Way the Truth and the Life."

I don't make the case. John 14: 6-14 does. Jesus is quite clear that NO ONE gets through to the Father except through Him.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply, dear brother in Christ!

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about communities of faith that do not even claim the Real Presence? In most Protestant services that I visited, the words of Institution might be quoted, to be sure, but the minister quoting them does not believe nor does he teach that the bread becomes anything other than bread during the Last Supper ceremony he conducts.

Most of my brothers and sisters in Christ – regardless of the doctrines they accept – recognize the body of Christ in themselves and in each other.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. – I Cor 12:12-14

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. – I Cor 12:27

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. – Ephesians 5:30

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

But sadly some of my brothers and sisters in Christ look at one another through the lens of their own doctrinal roots and thus sometimes even disrespect other members of Christ's body:

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. – I Corinthians 3:1-7

Truly, we are alive with Christ in God even while yet in the flesh.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

And yet some behave as if they have not yet spiritually discerned that Truth and treat one another as if they both are merely fleshy animals, not realizing everything they do to one another and to themselves, they do to Christ.

These things I command you, that ye love one another. – John 15:7

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. – I John 4:8-9

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. – I John 4:12-13

So if they would do this to one another, who are made sacred by the blood of Christ, His indwelling, His real presence – why would we be surprised if they would also extend their own doctrinal roots to disrespect the other things which God has made sacred, e.g. the words of God, the cup and the bread, Israel?

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are. – I Cor 3:16-17

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. – Matt 4:4

Give us this day our daily bread. – Matt 6:11

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. – Matthew 22:29

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

I am that bread of life. – John 6:48

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. - Jer 31:37

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. – Romans 11:25-28

And so I would say, the issue of discerning the body and blood of Christ - though certainly relevant to the cup and the bread - is a much larger issue and the larger sense is applicable to the warning given here:

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. - I Cor 11:28-30

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

[NoGrayZone]

"Many men want a goddess to pray to. Those of us who don't and understand that God forbids it, will never understand the need."

I simply cannot wrap my head around that one. John makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR NO ONE gets to the Father, except through the Son.

I am also trying to find something in the Bible that says it's okay for us to pray to Mary or Saints, but I couldn't find anything, so I googled.....

The explanation's I found on Catholic sites (they used Bible versus) STILL does not give permission TO PRAY TO ANYONE, but The Father, through His Son Jesus.

Unless someone can find me something in the Bible that allows Mary & Saint worship, I still must conclude it is very very bad.

[1000 silverlings]

Well quite simply, when men will not listen to God, they go astray. They imagine vain things and do what it is they want to do. Then you get man-made religion, as opposed to God made.

verse 19

Is it I whom they hurt, says the LORD; is it not rather themselves, to their own confusion?

[Quix]

TRUE INDEED.

IIRC, Henry Wright’s church . . . once or twice a year or so takes a whole Saturday . . .

Everyone meets at the church for the whole Saturday. The Lord’s Supper is all day long.

Everyone goes around to everyone else—i.e. anyone they think may have had even slight occasion to be offended or anyone they feel even slightly offended toward—and clears it up and shars the bread and cup with each of those people.

It’s evidently a very powerful cleansing and healing day.

[Quix]

INDEED.

RIGHT YOU ARE.

WELL PUT.

imho.

[Alamo-Girl]

What a powerful observance of the Lord's Supper that must be! Thank you for sharing that, dear brother in Christ, and thank you for your encouragements!

[NoGrayZone]

Do you belong to a church or organization? I have interviewed a few and I didn’t like any of them!

Besides my Bible, and a few here on FR that I enjoy following to see what else I can learn, I also watch and read from the Philadelphia Church of God..Key of David mostly.

I watch a few evangelicals on tv, but my Bible and Philadelphia Church of God are my 2 “most”.

[Petronski]

Naw. I'm NOT describing the UNIVERSAL CHURCH OF JESUS THE CHRIST at all.

Correct.

[Natural Law]

"Bible that allows Mary & Saint worship?

Do you ever ask the living to pray for you or offer to pray for another? The Catholic Church does not condone worship of Mary and the Saints. The Church does recognize veneration and prayers, which is nothing more than the practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ the saints on a spiritual level for intercession.

[1000 silverlings]

Your dearly departed, by your own vain idea, are in Purgatory at best and maybe worse, for all you know. They aren’t helping anybody, they can’t even help themselves. Jesus said that there is a great gulf between the living and the dead. Again, you obstinately refuse to pray to the One who demands obedience above all things.

[NoGrayZone]

"The prayer to Mary I know"

But WHY are you praying to her. I'm not trying to fight. I just want to know, where in the Bible, He says it's okay to pray to Jesus earthly mother. That's all I want. I can't find it and I just want to do what is right in His eyes.

I also want to know where in the Bible it says we can pray to Saints.

[Natural Law]

"Your dearly departed, by your own vain idea, are in Purgatory at best and maybe worse, for all you know."

Your imprecision in this conversation is indicative of your level of ignorance on the subject. No where did I mention anything about my "dearly departed". This isn't about praying to "Grammy" or my dear Aunt Agnes. This is about intercessory prayers to saints. Saints, by definition are those already in heaven.

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans (saints) as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

[1000 silverlings]

Their absurd theology has in effect, reasoned that Mary married the Holy Spirit, and that in effect, she is now the Holy Spirit. She produced God. So, she is their mediator between them and Christ. The verse they cite is that Jesus at the wedding in Cana, was forced to do her bidding and made wine.

Now prepare for the screaming and denials

[Natural Law]

"Their absurd theology has in effect, reasoned that Mary married the Holy Spirit, and that in effect, she is now the Holy Spirit."

Whose theory are you referring to because you are certainly not referring to the Catholic Church?

[1000 silverlings]

All those prayers are directed, rightly, to praising the Lord.

[Mad Dawg]

I am non-plussed myself at the otherwise wonderful Abp Chaput of Denver who seems to be very pro-illegal.

[NoGrayZone]

"Do you ever ask the living to pray for you or offer to pray for another?"

Absolutely! I need all the prayer I can get.

"which is nothing more than the practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ"

Oh, that's a WHOLE LOTTA SOMETHING MORE. That's where we go "astray". According to Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 and Psalms 146: 3-4, THE DEAD ARE AWARE OF NOTHING.

If you can find Bible verse that states otherwise, please let me know.

[Mad Dawg]

We're talking right past one another.

I do not see how my asking for Mary's prayers denies either (a) that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life; or (b) that NO ONE gets through to the Father except through Him.I think Jesus IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I profess that non one comes to the Father except through Jesus. I pray to Mary.Also to Dominic, Cahtherin of Siena, Anthony of Padua, Dymphna, Isadore, Claire, and a bunch of others. I alo ask for my friends to pray for me.

1000 silverlings may think he is entitled or competent to speak for me but he is not.

[Mad Dawg]

Natural Law: I guess you got the short straw. You can walk NGZ through the argument this time. It seems that they all think we’ve never thought about this in Scriptural terms.